Christians And Muslims United

[Happytofita]

Hello,

The "plagiarized" book that you are talking about is the most memorized book in the history of the human beings. Come up with a book like it, and then we are going to talk. My Prophet (PPUH) did not know how to read to write. How could a person like this come up with a book that more than 20 million people have memorized so far?

Talking about science, Quran is full of scientific evidences. It is not one or two. There are a lot. Was Muhammad, the illiterate person, lucky that much to predict embryological facts? Read and listen for yourself:

http://scienceislam.com/scientists_quran.php

By the way, we would like you to mention the scientific errors in the Bible.

Talking about "ridiculous scientific revelations", don't you know that camel urine is a health remedy? Look up before you judge, Jamie.

By the way, what about Ezekiel 4: 12, 13, 14, 15: “For your food you must bake barley loaves over human excrement in their sight, said the LORD. Thus the Israelites shall eat their food unclean among the nations where I scatter them. "Oh no, Lord GOD!" I protested. "Never have I been made unclean, and from my youth till now, never have I eaten carrion flesh or that torn by wild beasts; never has any unclean meat entered my mouth. Very well, he replied, I allow you cow's dung in place of human excrement; bake your bread on that."

No need to mention Isaiah.

Talking about violence, what about Saint Augustine’s Cognite Intrare? What about Bosnia? What about the Crusades? The list goes on and on... If you want to talk about violence, the Christian civilization is, statistically speaking, the bloodiest of all civilization in history.

Excuse me if I have said bad things, but I, and Muslims in general, would never associate those things with Jesus (ppuh) or with our beloved Christians. You said many things that were unfortunate about our Prophet (ppuh) which are obviously not true and not even worthy of mentioning. Acceptance was mentioned in the above post, I would add fairness because it is another important quality. Be fair when you judge others, people.

Take care,

Mouhcine

PS: Still, the fastest growing religion in the world despite everything. A point to ponder.

[NinaZara]

Sigh...

If any Christian can tell me what can we know from Matthew 17:24-25.

[Ekrem]

Jamie,
You wrote: “And you made this ridiculous statement: ‘If you read it you would realize in none of the Christian countries throughout history including today have been given so much freedom, justice, well treatment, full citizenship to the minorities as the Muslim countries had granted.’” By ‘the Muslim countries had granted’ I meant the old Muslim countries not the present. The present Muslim countries are all under the covert control and pressure of the West, none of them are independent in true sense and almost all of them governed by the puppets of the West. This has been the outcome of the decree taken by the Oxford Movement in 1820 to capture the leadership positions of the Muslims. Otherwise, the West could never manage to overthrow the Ottoman Empire if its traditional administrations, not masonic and servile Young Turk administration, had been in power. Sultan Abdulhamid II was the last caliph in true sense. With his dethronement Muslims began to fall into chaos and lose everything. So excluding present Muslim countries, I underline my statement: In none of the Christian countries throughout history including today have been given so much freedom, justice, well treatment, full citizenship to the minorities as the old Muslim countries had granted.

Jamie, you also wrote this: “As for the coincidental "scientific revelations" revealed in the Koran, we have a fitting proverb for things like that in English: Even a broken clock is right twice a day” The Koran is such a clock that has been challenging the infidels for fourteen years to find a tiny mistake in it despite the fact that it refers to universe, oceans, biology, zoology, physics, medicine, embryology, the events to happen and so many other topics. Can it be coincidental? The Koran also refers to some sicentific facts discovered recently and to be discovered in future. Our beloved prophet was unlettered and didn’t know a second languge. His style of speaking Arabic was very different from the Koran which is also a miracle from the literary point of view as well. Take, for instance, ‘Al Kanun fi’t Tıbb’, Avicenna’s medical book, the prime book on medicine for seven centuries in Europe. Although Avicenna was one of the greatest geniuses of all times, he could not free himself from false knowledge accepted precisely true in his time. If a layman reads his book today, even he laughs away let alone the doctors. See how miraculous the Qur’an is. Let me give you a striking example among many others. Click this:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/rose-nebula.html

Some more? Keith L. Moore, Ph.D, F.I.A.C., Professor of Anatomy and Associate Dean Basic Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario M55 IAB, Canada, embraced Islam after reading Qur’an and published an article: A Scientist’s Interpretation of References to Embryology in the Qur’an. Click to read more:
http://mustaqeem.wordpress.com/2008/02/18/keith-moore-on-embryology-in-the-quran/

What a hackneyed and irrelevant reponse, “Even a broken clock is right twice a day”, you make! If your heart cannot bear to hear the miracles of the Koran, why don’t you keep silent at least instead of pushing yourself deeper into the hell. Let me quote a hadith here: “This world, in comparison with the world to come, is the same as if one of you were to put his finger in the ocean and pull it out. Consider how much you would have when you pull it out.” So please think what you are risking or messing up. We are not discussing football.

Your paragraph starting with “you can’t convince me” is really too abhorrent and blasphemous. He married his first wife when he was 24 or 25 and she was 40 years old, our prophet was her third husband. She was his only wife until she died at sixty five. He was strictly faithful to her. Can you imagine anyone who lived faithfully for 25 years with a single wife fifteen years older than himself in a society where prostitution was so pervasive and there was no limit on the number of wives one could marry. How can you consider he would live spotlessly faithful all his raging 25 years with a single wife fifteen years older than himself and after she died he would indulge in lust, become profligate when his desires began to fade? All his marriages was for a reason and he did not have nine wives at a time. Only two of his wives were younger than him, others were much older and with many children from their former husbands. As a Christian I think you accept the prophet Solomon or Sulaiman who had 900 wives and the prophet David who had 9 wives and the prophet Moses who had four wives.
As for the other so called hadithes you mentioned in this paragraph of yours I regret to say you are imprudently reducing yourself to the status of an impudent, superficial ignorant who thinks himself knows everything. Some hundred thousands of hadithes were narrated, some of them utterly false, some of them authentic, some of them in between. A science like hadithology was developed to rank the hadithes in order of reliability or authenticity. I don’t think the Gospels in your hands would rank with the weak hadithes in order of authenticity when tested according to these very tough hadith criteria. For instance, you claim there is an hadith saying “the sun sets in a pool of muddy water” that I’ve never heard before. Tell me the name of the hadith book, and its number. I don’t think at all you can find those hadithes you mentioned among the false ones, let alone the authentic or even weak ones, but you can wake up and find out you are not a hero but a miserable person who is trying to smear the sun with mud. Think again what you wrote in the light of this:

In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God’s personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, "An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being." At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: "If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever." - [James A. Michener]

Think again what you wrote in the light of this:

English author Thomas Carlyle in his “Heroes and Hero Worship”, was simply amazed:
“How one man single handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than three decades [in 23 years].”

Think again what you wrote in the light of this:

From the literary point of view, the Koran is regarded as a specimen of purest Arabic, written in half poetry, half prose. It has been said that in some cases grammarians have adopted their rules to agree with certain expressions used in it, and though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none yet has succeeded [and will never]. H. A. R. Gibb, Mohammedanism, p. 42

Think again what you wrote in the light of this:

Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Warrior, Conqueror of ideas, the Restorer of rational beliefs, the Preacher of a religion without images, the Founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one heavenly Empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards [I repeat, "ALL"] by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, "Is there any man greater than he?" --[Alphonse Lamartine]

Think again what you wrote in the light of this:

The noble founder of a nation, an empire and a religion. The unlettered one bestowed upon the world the Book which is a miracle, the eternal miracle and the true miracle. -- [Reverend B. Smith]

Think again what you wrote in the light of this:

The critics are blind. They cannot see that the only 'sword' Muhammad wielded was the sword of mercy, compassion, friendship and forgiveness - the sword that conquers enemies and purifies their hearts. His sword was sharper than the sword of steel. But the biased critics of Islam are prejudicial and partisan, who are narrow minded and whose eyes are covered by a veil of ignorance. They see fire instead of light, ugliness instead of beauty and evil instead of good. They distort and present every good quality as a great vice. It reflects their own depravity. -- [Pandit Gyanandra Dev Sharma Shastri]

Think again what you wrote in the light of this:

The greatest crime, the greatest 'sin' of Mohammad in the eyes of the Christian West is that he did not allow himself to be slaughtered, to be 'crucified' by his enemies. He only defended himself, his family and his followers; and finally vanquished his enemies. Mohammad's success is the Christians' gall of disappointment: He did not believe in any vicarious sacrifices for the sins of others. -- [Edward Gibbon]

Think again what you wrote in the light of this:

The lies that we (Christians) have heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only. -- [Thomas Carlyle]

Finally let me translate a passage from a Turkish poet and writer Ismet Özel to English for you, Jamie:

All the creation except man is given makings by nature, whereas they are granted to mankind by means of Divine Revelation. Today Divine Wisdom is solely in the Holy Qur’an and the Sunna of Prophet Mohammad, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. All other knowledge descended from Allah to mankind was either made slanted or lost. So all the religions apart from Islam are only cultures.
People can indeed maintain their lives by their cultures. Moreover, even the cultures which have totally broken off with the Divine Origin, and formed by rebelling against it, can also bear an appearance of power representation in the earthly life. It is not really a human life as long as man lives not being aware of the purpose of his creation, forgetting the meaning of his life, no matter to whatsoever level of satisfaction he might achieve the means of enjoying the life. What life should we call that life which has been sunk in unbelief, ignorance and frenzy? What life do you think it is then? If we say it is animal life, would it not be something unfair done to these creatures who know instinctively what is good what is bad for themselves?

Don’t forget you are not right when you are powerful, you are powerful when you are right, for there is God, for
“God grants a respite to the oppressor, but when He finally seizes him, He will not let him escape.”as our beloved Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said.

[Skrej]

[Happytofita]

The said things about Aisha are obviously wrong and not even worthy of mentioning and you know that very well. The age of puberty vary from country to country. The numbers across Europe are different. Today, what is considered the age of marriage in one country is not in an other, let alone 1400 years back. People at that time got mature earlier, and this is a known fact. Just go back to your own family and see at what age your grandparents got married. What we call children today, were he-men at that time. Ousama bin Zayd was a military commander. What was his age? 17. Now try and put a 17 year old the head of the military or something like that and you will see what will happen. The same goes for girls. And to crown everything, those who suffered from molestation, or whatever you want to call it, have horrible lives. They suffer from psychological problems and so forth. Did Aisha suffer from that if your claims are true? Who was Aisha? Go back and read about the leading scholar of Muslims.

[Gray]

"In the long run nothing can withstand reason and experience, and the contradiction religion offers to both is only too palpable." -- Sigmund Freud

:)
_________________
First lesson - English, not english. I, not i. ~A student of English

[Ekrem]

Hi everybody,

Your remarks about Hz Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) are great, Happytofita. Why don’t you write more comprehensively.

Skrej can be right about the ages of the wives of our beloved prophet (pbuh), just some details which have never attracted my interest in my life before. Therefore I think I was misled by the website that I hurriedly collected the information without cross-checking while I was writing my open letter to Jamie. I have not checked whether the numbers about their ages are true or not. I apologize for my mistakes. As I began correcting my mistakes, let me correct my grammer mistake as well in the meantime. The sentence in my previous letter should read “ Otherwise, the West could have never managed (not ‘could never manage’) to overthrow the Ottoman Empire if its traditional administrations, not masonic and servile Young Turk administration, had been in power.”
Skrej is very cynical, sinister in his all other remarks if he is not a victim of anti propaganda produced against Islam. They are all baseless, not even worth to say something to refute. Upon this argument, I did a further study on our beloved prophet’s marriages (pbuh) and have come to a conclusion that he had led such a chaste and decent life that no one’s life from Adam to the end day can ever be ranked with his life. No one in the mankind past and present can comparably let his life including his privacy be known in detail as much as he did from his birth to his death. As for his lofty spiritual life, only the great saints can have access to understand it to the extent that their greatness would allow. So, he is the best model of all times as a husband and parent as well as many other standings a man can assume in his life. Those who are interested in can find very academic and scientific arguments and studies on the internet or in literature. We all, and the West in particular, need a profound investigation on our beloved prophet’s family life and relations to draw best lessons to solve our deep rooted grave problems in our family lives and relations. I really worry for the doom of those who deliberately strive to denigrate him as urged by their enmity and hatred; they can attract the divine wrath on themselves even before they die. They cannot smear mud on the sun, they only make themselves disgraceful. The more they strive, the more his greatness shines like the moon when it is full.

Upon my my quotation:
English author Thomas Carlyle in his “Heroes and Hero Worship”, was simply amazed:
“How one man single handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than three decades [in 23 years].” Skrej says:”One also wonders how Hitler was able to convince the German peoples to accept his extremism, too.” Skrej is apparently unable to differ the Big Bang from the other explosions. He also wrote:“Saladin also united the fractured Arabic tribes, solidified the Middle East, and ruled large swaths of the area, in a similar time frame.” He doesn’t want to remember the second caliph Omar, may Allah be pleased with him, was a man so cruel and so ignorant that he buried his little daughter alive to rid himself from so called shame of having a daughter before embracing Islam. After his conversion he became a man to be admitted on the list of 100 greatest men of all times prepared by Michael Hart fourteen centuries later his time. By the way our beloved prophet ranked first on this list. If Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is builder of a huge damn with generators, turbines, pumps and irrigation canals, Saladin, may Allah be pleased with him, is just an enthusiastic worker who made some important repair works on this already installed huge and perfect system.

Upon my quotation:

From the literary point of view, the Koran is regarded as a specimen of purest Arabic, written in half poetry, half prose. It has been said that in some cases grammarians have adopted their rules to agree with certain expressions used in it, and though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none yet has succeeded [and will never]. H. A. R. Gibb, Mohammedanism, p. 42
Skrej wrote:
“And, we have to question, how an unlettered and illiterate man (by your own admission) can achieve grammatical perfection. It is only considered 'pure' and 'perfect', because faithful believers decided arbitrarily to use it as a standard.” H.A.R.Gibb is a researcher, he writes after a long study. There are also many other researchers like Hamza Andreas Tzortzis who published a nice work on this topic. They are not all Arabs or faithful believers decided arbitrarily to use the Qur’an as a standard, they are reflecting a truth after a long study, embroidering a falsehood or blindly denying a fact to satisfy the hatred in their hearts against Islam. He also implies the Qur’an is a scripture written by our beloved prophet (may Allah forgive me for mentioning) whose being unlettered is a lie. What is his evidence? Vatican has been looking for this evidence for fourteen centuries, they could buy the evidence for billions of dollars if he really had. Skrej should read this: In an article under the subject of the Qur'an, the Catholic Church states, "Over the centuries, many theories have been offered as to the origin of the Qur'an... Today no sensible man accepts any of these theories." !! Now here is the age-old Catholic Church, which has been around for so many centuries, denying these futile attempts to explain away the Qur'an. Indeed, the Qur'an is a problem for the Catholic Church. It states that it is revelation, so they study it. Certainly, they would love to find proof that it is not, but they cannot. They cannot find a viable explanation. But at least they are honest in their research and do not accept the first unsubstantiated interpretation which comes along. The Church states that in fourteen centuries it has not yet been presented a sensible explanation. At least it admits that the Qur'an is not an easy subject to dismiss.
Read more http://www.islam101.com/science/GaryMiller.html

“Every religion considers its own holy book to be the definitive and only correct word of God. Many religions maintain that there's is the only correct version, and if you don't believe you're going to hell, etc. It's all a matter of belief and faith,” he says. When it comes to the Qur’an it is not only the Muslims who believe it to be an obvious miracle, the unique non-slanted divine scripture, but also many other scientists like Dr. Keith Moore whom I already mentioned and Skrej preferred to keep silent about. So it is not just a matter of belief and faith, but a concrete fact, especially in this present era we live in. It seems that the more mankind, not neccessarily the Muslims, advances in science and technology, the more visible this fact will be. New nations including the Western countries would be honored to embrace and defend Islam better than the current Muslims in future, who knows. When they smear dirt on our sacreds they say there is freedom of speech, when we talk about our religion, and voice our sentiments and opinions, people like Skrej call it extremism and intolerance.
“Give us a few hundred years, and we'll see if there isn't a new "divinely inspired most recent edition" that some other self-manifested prophet hasn't managed to get a bunch of people to follow,” says Skrej. I think most of us believe in the creation and that we were created for a divine purpose and the Judgement Day will certainly come. We are in agreement with the Christians up to this point I think. The Creator will judge all His slaves according to what? Can you believe in that the Creator would judge us or assess our deeds according to the tenets or the guidelines of mostly slanted divine scriptures which so many human words mingled with or completely lost holy books or papers divinely descended to mankind, and put aside the sole holy book, the Qur’an He declared He will protect against any attempt to distort it in the Qur’an itself? Does it sound reasonable? There has to be a set of divine standards or doctrines or words firmly laid down without any forgery to judge we people accordingly and justly. That’s why the first man Adam was created as a prophet not to exclude anyone from the divine judgement from the very beginning of the mankind. The case of those people to whom no divine mesage reached, a case hardly possible today, is beyond my ken. The Creator sent to mankind thousands of prophets not just those cited in the holy scriptures. It was made clear in the Qur’an that the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the last prophet. May God judge every people by their own religions regardless of whether they are slanted or not? Interfaith dialogue tries to convince people that He will do so. The Qur’an, however, made it clear already:

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (5:3)
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him." (3:85)

“There's quite of bit of evidence pointing to the rise of fundamentalist Islamic intolerance as the result of the declining Islamic influence,” remarks Skrej. It is not clear what he meant by fundamentalist Islamic intolerance. If he meant Wahhabism he is right. Wahhabism is a heretical sect founded by the British intelligence service who saw Sufism as the biggest obstacle for their vicious goal to overthrow the Ottomans, now serves to make the image of Islam as ugly as possible and to produce handy pretexts like 9/11 to invade Muslim countries. If Skrej considers intolerance talking about the interpretation of the Qur’an, Islamic tenets, marvels and miracles, defending it against baseless libel and slanders as, he is wrong and even absurd. As a result of declined adharence and devotion of the Muslims to Islam, they lost their insight and foresight and so they gathered around hypocrites, spies and agents instead of the friends of God, and the right leaders and scholars. This is the reason why the power and influence of the Muslims not the Islamic influence has been declined, not intolerance which is an abused conception so profusely and meaninglessly used everywhere. I remember a verse which says something like this: “We do not take away your superiority unless you lose your merits.” This verse points out the reason. God has given the superiority to the West not for forever but for a certain time and also for a test. And they failed the test. It could have been a great opportunity to reach the truth and guidance, but they used this God-given superiority to dominate the world not to make the truth and justice prevail on earth to please God with them. They can enjoy their superiority until they die but they will certainly suffer when they are questioned what they did with it. Yet, we don’t know how the new generations of the West would act.

Gray wrote:
"In the long run nothing can withstand reason and experience, and the contradiction religion offers to both is only too palpable." -- Sigmund Freud

I think S.F meant Judaism and Christianity by religion not Islam with which he was not familiar. Islam offers no contradiction to reason and experience. On the contrary they both affirm Islam if they can reach to its level. Reason is like a horse which you can ride up to the sea shore, then you have to get on the ship if you want to cross the sea. The great friends of God talk about the places or states which are only possible to go through love for God not through reason. One of them says:

If you would like to beat the drum of honour,
Go beyond the wheel of the stars;
As this circle filled with rings is a drum of humiliation.

We should not overrate the West and underrate the Muslims, we are not rivals; we are all human beings from Adam (pbuh) who will account for, one by one, before God Almighty, the All-knowing, not before a pope or any other mortal for the correctness of our beliefs and deeds. It used to be necessary to conquer the lands to remove the barriers of the states on the way of conveying the divine truths and messages to the individuals. Now people from every creed and faith can communicate freely as we do here and can effectively contribute in promoting brotherhood and harmony in the human family. We can live side by side and respect our beliefs regardless of we agree or not, and talk about everything without compelling and fighting. We don’t have to merge our beliefs and thus spoil and shatter them all.

[Ekrem]

Sorry I made a terrible mistake again. The correct sentence should read: "They are not all Arabs or faithful believers decided arbitrarily to use the Qur’an as a standard, they are reflecting a truth after a long study, NOT embroidering a falsehood or blindly denying a fact to satisfy the hatred in their hearts against Islam."

[Gray]

[Ekrem]

There have already been many miraculous affirmations, and there will be many others as the science improves and advances, and there will be people who will still ignore every miracle no matter how great they are, Gray.

[Gray]

[Ekrem]

Gray wrote:
"I saw that hatred when you indirectly accused other beliefs being contradictory to the reason and experience. That is what we should get away from."
It was you I think who accused all the religions of being contradictory to the reason and experience, not me. I just excluded my beliefs from your accusation. I have very little knowledge about other beliefs to speak about them. I just objected to them where they contradict with my beliefs. We respect all the holy books not only Qur'an, because we believe they have the words of God in them as well. I have a conviction that only Qur'an has come to us as original and all the other scriptures are not original. It does not necessarily show that I have hatred towards other beliefs and their followers. When I said my conviction or opinion I get rid of the responsibility, the people who received my opinion have their right to agree with me or not and the other way around. Where do you see hatred or even reason for hatred in this cycle?

[Gray]

[Jamie (K)]

[Gray]

HI ALL.

I wish all of us would agree somewhere or at least get away from using the specific references.

I could only hope that we think we can start here:

1) I cannot get away from my belief.

2) I would hate to question other beliefs.

3) I belive that my belief alone is supreme, even to the humanity.

4) My belief doesn't allow me to explore the definitions on my own. I believe everything is there and there is nothing left for me to do on this earth.
My life is purposeless.

5) Only my interpretation of all beliefs is unchallenged. I could understand every word written anywhere on this earth.

Please don't take it as an offense. But try to see youself in the mirror of your own eyes. And don't forget to SMILE if you can :)
_________________
First lesson - English, not english. I, not i. ~A student of English