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 #47 (permalink) Mon Jun 01, 2009 20:06 pm The Christians and Muslims united |
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| Gray wrote: |
| 1) I cannot get away from my belief. |
Nobody can fake his heart.
| Gray wrote: |
| 2) I would hate to question other beliefs. |
I'm sorry. This opinion is totally illogical to me. If you learn science, it is absolutely okay to question anything. If you stop questioning, you might as well just stop thinking.
| Gray wrote: |
| 3) I belive that my belief alone is supreme, even to the humanity. |
People cannot live on the concept of humanity alone. The fact that people deal with specific problems in life that need specific solutions cannot depend on a concept this general.
| Gray wrote: |
4) My belief doesn't allow me to explore the definitions on my own. I believe everything is there and there is nothing left for me to do on this earth.
My life is purposeless. |
On the contrary, my belief (I cannot speak for others) specifically ask me to think and question my own belief and not just assume that was given to me was the truth.
| Gray wrote: |
| 5) Only my interpretation of all beliefs is unchallenged. I could understand every word written anywhere on this earth. |
Is this not the exact act of having our own definition and refused to be guided?
| Gray wrote: |
| Please don't take it as an offense. But try to see youself in the mirror of your own eyes. |
One of the teachings in Islam is muhasabah, it means constant self-examination.
| Gray wrote: |
| And don't forget to SMILE if you can :) |
One big smile for you. :D In fact, in Islam, a smile is sedeqah, which means charity. |
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NinaZara
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 1168
Location: Malaysia (Cat city)
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| #48 (permalink) Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:20 am The Christians and Muslims united |
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| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| 1) I cannot get away from my belief. |
Nobody can fake his heart. |
To be observant is not to fake our heart, it is to keep our eyes wide open :)
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| 2) I would hate to question other beliefs. |
I'm sorry. This opinion is totally illogical to me. If you learn science, it is absolutely okay to question anything. If you stop questioning, you might as well just stop thinking. |
To question is not to interfere. I should not be that rigid with what I believe or I should not be making others feel defending with my questions :)
Thinking is not about questions alone, it is the process of using your mind to consider something carefully :)
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| 3) I belive that my belief alone is supreme, even to the humanity. |
People cannot live on the concept of humanity alone. The fact that people deal with specific problems in life that need specific solutions cannot depend on a concept this general. |
We all are free to choose what we want to live with -- be it the humanity, beliefs or going back to the stone age again :)
What I say is what I see, not what you do :)
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
4) My belief doesn't allow me to explore the definitions on my own. I believe everything is there and there is nothing left for me to do on this earth.
My life is purposeless. |
On the contrary, my belief (I cannot speak for others) specifically ask me to think and question my own belief and not just assume that was given to me was the truth. |
It is good. It is what you interpret :)
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| 5) Only my interpretation of all beliefs is unchallenged. I could understand every word written anywhere on this earth. |
Is this not the exact act of having our own definition and refused to be guided? |
If you arrive at big NO after reading (5), this is good...good for all of us. It is a hope then, that we would agree :)
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| Please don't take it as an offense. But try to see youself in the mirror of your own eyes. |
One of the teachings in Islam is muhasabah, it means constant self-examination. |
Not to offend, nature has its own principles. And those are not slaves to any of the beliefs :)
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| And don't forget to SMILE if you can :) |
One big smile for you. :D In fact, in Islam, a smile is sedeqah, which means charity. |
:)
_________________
First lesson - English, not english. I, not i. ~A student of English |
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 Gray
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 978
Location: Proxima Centauri
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| #49 (permalink) Tue Jun 02, 2009 16:07 pm Christians and Muslims united |
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Oh Jamie, is that you again!
I wrote:
| Quote: |
| "I have very little knowledge about other beliefs to speak about them. I just objected to them where they contradict my beliefs. We respect all the holy books not only Qur'an, because we believe they have the words of God in them as well." |
See I'm able to admit that I know very little about your faith. I don't feel free to say everything no matter it is true or lie like you, Jamie. I mostly talk about and try to introduce some facts about my own faith. Why don't you act in a similar way and refrain from blundering all the time. It seems you didn't even read and contemplate the answers I had already given to you, showing how amazing and unique the Qur'an is, how great our beloved prophet was. Have you got an impediment to say things like "Oh really? How amazing! I didn't know that." You just talk, lie, libel, slander, care about nothing, respect nothing, and also know nothing. All your criticisms, denouncements are trite and baseless; Holy Qur'an has already been cleared of them thousands of times. If you are sincerely in pursuit of truth you can find numerous websites giving very rational and plausible answers to all your questions or libels. I already said it was nonsense to try to smear the sun with mud; 50,000 Brits are converting to Islam each year in England only, why don't you stop them with your shallow arguments. I think they are not all stupid unable to comprehend your claims. If you want someone who is familiar with your faith as well as Islam to receive answers in a more advanced language and comprehensive form I suggest you to enter the websites of Yusuf Estes, a former Christian Preacher and Minister. Or Shaykh Dr.Abdalqadir As-Sufi, formerly Ian Dallas. They know very well your faith unlike me. Ask them about contradictions in the Holy Qur'an. They would tell you where the contradictions are. Perhaps you can convince them and bring them back to the Christianity. Or they would get you, who knows. I don't mean to be offensive, Jamie, but you are too instigating. Next time I hope you would talk about your own faith, teach us how to please God with ourselves. |
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Ekrem
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 34
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| #50 (permalink) Tue Jun 02, 2009 16:47 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
If I'm not mistaken, Mohammed ordered the killing of some people due to religious differences, which would be against Christian teaching. He also ordered at least one adulteress stoned to death, while Jesus prevented a crowd from doing that.
I think the two religions are compatible only on an extremely superficial level, but that's just my opinion. |
Mr Jamie let me tell you something, the concept of stoned to death directed to adulterer and adulteress who are married, but those are single and when they adultery so thier sentences is hundred lashes, and must leave thier country for one year, Adultery,as everybody knows is forbidden in Islam and in Christianity too, and it's not Jesus (peace be upon him) or our prophet say that, but God forbidden Adultery and of course our prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم)
explain to us why God ordered that and show as the right way and believe me some of Christians start to realize the importance of Islamic law, this is our role as a Muslims nation, we have a big responsability to give a clear picture about Islam as a religion and change this dark view which authored by the others.
Unfortunately, what is happening around us today is the result of a misunderstanding of the religion, whether by Christians or Muslims.
Yes we are muslims and we believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) because God's prophets and messengers are muslims and they believe in one God. |
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Aryam
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 103
Location: Sweet Moon
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| #51 (permalink) Tue Jun 02, 2009 17:00 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
Here is an answer to that:
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That is not the answer, This called the impact of the media, and this the picture that the Western want to give it to the Islam I mean blur picture.. |
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Aryam
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 103
Location: Sweet Moon
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| #52 (permalink) Tue Jun 02, 2009 17:21 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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| Happytofita wrote: |
Hello,
People say many horrible things about Islam. Some say it oppresses women, others say it teaches violence, etc. But still it is the fastest growing religion in the world... A point to ponder. :roll:
Take care,
A. Mouhcine |
And the list is too long...
Actually that it called misunderstanding and incitement on Islamic religion, but in other hand as you said the more Widespread in the world. |
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Aryam
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 103
Location: Sweet Moon
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| #53 (permalink) Tue Jun 02, 2009 21:52 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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We will stand with the truth whether it is with the Muslims or against them. The brain of that guy has gone funny. :lol:
I wonder whether there is a law that would put the guy under arrest.. :roll:
Take care,
Mouhcine |
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Happytofita
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 725
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| #54 (permalink) Wed Jun 03, 2009 19:45 pm The Christians and Muslims united |
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| Gray wrote: |
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| 1) I cannot get away from my belief. |
Nobody can fake his heart. |
To be observant is not to fake our heart, it is to keep our eyes wide open :) |
So believing in something is not being observant? I find no relation.
| Gray wrote: |
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| 2) I would hate to question other beliefs. |
I'm sorry. This opinion is totally illogical to me. If you learn science, it is absolutely okay to question anything. If you stop questioning, you might as well just stop thinking. |
To question is not to interfere. I should not be that rigid with what I believe or I should not be making others feel defending with my questions :)
Thinking is not about questions alone, it is the process of using your mind to consider something carefully :) |
Who is interfering? This is a discussion. If you are suggesting that I should be nicer in my comments, I think your problem is that you cannot take a comment objectively. Just because I made a comment that might have caused some people to be defensive about their beliefs, it doesn't mean that I was being rude.
As you can see, there are comments here that can be classified as inflammatory. And the thing about inflammation is, the more you respond to it, the worse it gets.
| Gray wrote: |
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| 3) I belive that my belief alone is supreme, even to the humanity. |
People cannot live on the concept of humanity alone. The fact that people deal with specific problems in life that need specific solutions cannot depend on a concept this general. |
We all are free to choose what we want to live with -- be it the humanity, beliefs or going back to the stone age again :)
What I say is what I see, not what you do :) |
Again, where did I say you have to follow me? You are barking up the wrong tree here. I just told you I believe that everybody should question their own beliefs.
If you want to pray to a tree, or if you want to pray to a statue, or an idol, or not pray at all, it is all up to you. There is no compulsion in religion.
| Gray wrote: |
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
4) My belief doesn't allow me to explore the definitions on my own. I believe everything is there and there is nothing left for me to do on this earth.
My life is purposeless. |
On the contrary, my belief (I cannot speak for others) specifically ask me to think and question my own belief and not just assume that was given to me was the truth. |
It is good. It is what you interpret :) |
I didn't interpret anything. I was just telling you one of the teachings of my beliefs, and amazingly enough, it's all about using your logic.
| Gray wrote: |
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| 5) Only my interpretation of all beliefs is unchallenged. I could understand every word written anywhere on this earth. |
Is this not the exact act of having our own definition and refused to be guided? |
If you arrive at big NO after reading (5), this is good...good for all of us. It is a hope then, that we would agree :) |
I don't think we all need to agree on everything to live in peace.
| Gray wrote: |
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| Please don't take it as an offense. But try to see youself in the mirror of your own eyes. |
One of the teachings in Islam is muhasabah, it means constant self-examination. |
Not to offend, nature has its own principles. And those are not slaves to any of the beliefs :) |
None taken.
I just think that believing in "nature" IS a belief. I have no problems being a slave to God, I hope you don't have problems escaping one master only to find yourself in the hands of another.
| Gray wrote: |
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Gray wrote: |
| And don't forget to SMILE if you can :) |
One big smile for you. :D In fact, in Islam, a smile is sedeqah, which means charity. |
:) |
You are a rich person. ;) |
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NinaZara
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 1168
Location: Malaysia (Cat city)
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| #55 (permalink) Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:15 am Christians And Muslims United |
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Nina, biblically speaking:
Adam was made by God, as we all are.
Jesus is the Son of God --God incarnate a little more than 2000 years ago -- sent to earth to die for everyone's sin. It is original sin, something Mother Theresa herself commited by being human and living past the "age of knowing" -- little kids, who cannot really make a decision to accept the Gospel and follow Christ, are exempted... at least that's what we were taught.
Adam's folly at the hands of the temptress (Eve) and Tempter (Satan -- the snake in the story of Eden) condemned all (except young kids) -- that was God's decree in Genesis.
Jews still await their savior, but to Christians He has already walked among us as God -- El Sheddai, Emmanuel, Lamb of God, Prince of Peace. He was Jewish by birth (mother). His main purposes were to teach us how to live and how to avoid eternal damnation -- eternity in hell/hades/sheol. Not one of us could defeat Sin without it, so Jesus allowed the Romans to beat, flog and nail him to a wooden cross. His blood pays the price for Adam's Original Sin for anyone who would believe. He allowed that to be done to him... spent hours of agony on that cross. When he died the Jewish temple's curtain was torn in half and the earth shook (or some such things).
He was buried in a sort of cave and a watch was posted. Three days later he rose -- the stone was rolled away.
Jesus then told the Disciples that everything belongs to Him... and to spread the Word, so that others might be saved and shown the good path.
That's more or less biblical.
And here are the two most important things, according to Him:
1) Love God
2) Love your neighbor as yourself
Of course when he said "Love the Lord your God..." he was also saying "Love me..." since he knew he was God, simply in human form.
Ugh.
I'm not a preacher. LOL
as for the mystery of the Holy Trinity, I think of it this way:
God is H2O
- God the Father (Yahweh) is ice
- Jesus Christ is water
- The Holy Spirit is water vapor
All are water; all are God.
Buenos noches!
_________________
Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee. |
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Prezbucky
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2621
Location: Nashville, TN (USA)
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| #56 (permalink) Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:20 am Christians And Muslims United |
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| Aryam wrote: |
| Adultery,as everybody knows is forbidden in Islam and in Christianity too, and it's not Jesus (peace be upon him) or our prophet say that, but God forbidden Adultery and of course our prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) |
Jesus's approach was fundamentally different from the Islamic approach:
ﻳﻮﺣﻨﺎ 8
1 وَأَمَّا يَسُوعُ، فَذَهَبَ إِلَى جَبَلِ الزَّيْتُونِ.
2 وَعِنْدَ الْفَجْرِ عَادَ إِلَى الْهَيْكَلِ، فَاجْتَمَعَ حَوْلَهُ جُمْهُورُ الشَّعْبِ، فَجَلَسَ يُعَلِّمُهُمْ.
3 وَأَحْضَرَ إِلَيْهِ مُعَلِّمُو الشَّرِيعَةِ وَالْفَرِّ يسِيُّونَ امْرَأَةً ضُبِطَتْ تَزْنِي، وَأَوْقَفُوهَا فِي الْوَسَطِ،
4 وَقَالُوا لَهُ: «يَامُعَلِّمُ، هَذِهِ الْمَرْأَةُ ضُبِطَتْ وَهِيَ تَزْنِي.
5 وَقَدْ أَوْصَانَا مُوسَى فِي شَرِيعَتِهِ بِإِعْدَامِ أَمْثَالِهَا رَجْماً بِالْحِجَارَةِ، فَمَا قَوْلُكَ أَنْتَ؟»
6 سَأَلُوهُ ذَلِكَ لِكَيْ يُحْرِجُوهُ فَيَجِدُوا تُهْمَةً يُحَاكِمُونَهُ بِهَا. أَمَّا هُوَ فَانْحَنَى وَبَدَأَ يَكْتُبُ بِإِصْبَعِهِ عَلَى الأَرْضِ.
7 وَلكِنَّهُمْ أَلَحُّوا عَلَيْهِ بِالسُّؤَالِ، فَاعْتَدَلَ وَقَالَ لَهُمْ: «مَنْ كَانَ مِنْكُمْ بِلاَ خَطِيئَةٍ فَلْيَرْمِهَا أَوَّلاً بِحَجَرٍ!»
8 ثُمَّ انْحَنَى وَعَادَ يَكْتُبُ عَلَى الأَرْضِ.
9 فَلَمَّا سَمِعُوا هَذَا الْكَلاَمَ انْسَحَبُوا جَمِيعاً وَاحِداً تِلْوَ الآخَرِ، ابْتِدَاءً مِنَ الشُّيُوخِ. وَبَقِيَ يَسُوعُ وَحْدَهُ، وَالْمَرْأَةُ وَاقِفَةٌ فِي مَكَانِهَا.
10 فَاعْتَدَلَ وَقَالَ لَهَا: «أَيْنَ هُمْ أَيَّتُهَا الْمَرْأَةُ؟ أَلَمْ يَحْكُمْ عَلَيْكِ أَحَدٌ مِنْهُمْ؟» |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6556
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #57 (permalink) Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:40 am The Christians and Muslims united |
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| Ekrem wrote: |
| In an article under the subject of the Qur'an, the Catholic Church states, "Over the centuries, many theories have been offered as to the origin of the Qur'an... Today no sensible man accepts any of these theories." !! Now here is the age-old Catholic Church, which has been around for so many centuries, denying these futile attempts to explain away the Qur'an. Indeed, the Qur'an is a problem for the Catholic Church. It states that it is revelation, so they study it. Certainly, they would love to find proof that it is not, but they cannot. They cannot find a viable explanation. But at least they are honest in their research and do not accept the first unsubstantiated interpretation which comes along. The Church states that in fourteen centuries it has not yet been presented a sensible explanation. At least it admits that the Qur'an is not an easy subject to dismiss. |
Who are you talking about when you say "the Catholic Church"? I don't think you know. You're merely parroting something you read in some Islamic source that is probably using one Catholic's words (or maybe his garbled words) and claiming they are the words of "the Catholic Church".
Islam and the Koran are not a problem for the Catholic Church, because St. John of Damascus effectively refuted Islamic doctrine way back in the 8th century. Later scholarship has made things clear about the sources of the Koran that Muslims, with their magical thinking, don't want to admit:
| The Catholic Encyclopedia wrote: |
The sources of the Koran be reduced to six:
* The Old Testament (canonical and apocryphal) and the hybrid Judaism of the late rabbinical schools. During Mohammed's time the Jews were numerous in many parts of Arabia, especially around Medina. Familiarity with them is undoubtly responsible for many Old Testament stories alluded to in Koran. Later Judaism and Rabbinism are equally well represented (Geiger, "Was hat Mohammed aus dem Judenthum aufgenommen?", Wiesbaden, 1833; tr. "Judaism and Islam", Madras, 1898).
* The New Testament (canonical and apocryphal) and various heretical doctrines. On his journeys between Syria, Hijaz, and Yemen, Mohammed had every opportunity to come in close touch with Yemenite, Abyssinian, Ghassanite, and Syrian Christians, especially heretic. Hence, while the influence of orthodox Christianity upon the Koran has been slight, apocryphal and heretical Christian legends, on the other hand, are one of the original sources of Koranic faith. (See Muir, op. cit. infra, 66-239; Tisdall, "The Original Sources of the Qur'an", London, 1905, 55-211.)
* Sabaism, a combination of Judaism, Manicheism, and old disfigured Babylonian heathenism.
* Zoroastrianism. On account of Persia's political influence in the north-eastern part of Arabia, it is natural to find Zoroastrian elements in the Koran.
* Hanifism, the adherents of which, called Hanifs, must have been considerable in number and influence, as it is known from contemporary Arabian sources that twelve of Mohammed's followers were members of this sect.
* Native ancient and contemporary Arabian heathen beliefs and practices. Wellhausen has collected in his "Reste des arabischen Heidentums" (Berlin, 1897) all that is known of pre-Islamic Arabian heathen belief, traditions, customs, and superstitions, many of which are either alluded to or accepted and incorporated in the Koran. From the various sects and creeds, and Abul-Fida, the well-known historian and geographer of the twelfth century, it is clear that religious beliefs and practices of the Arabs of Mohammed's day form one of the many sources of Islam. From this heathen source Islam derived the practices of polygamy and slavery, which Mohammed sanctioned by adopting them. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6556
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #58 (permalink) Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:13 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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| Aryam wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
Here is an answer to that:
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That is not the answer, This called the impact of the media, and this the picture that the Western want to give it to the Islam I mean blur picture.. |
It's typical of Muslims, in my experience, that they claim Islam is peaceful, but when Islam's warlike doctrines are exposed, they either claim that the Muslim clergyman is "not Muslim" or they blame his words on the West. You accused the West of trying to blur the picture, but you expressed no disagreement with what the man said. This is typical of Muslims. They don't like their violent doctrines to be exposed, but they also don't disagree with them. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6556
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #59 (permalink) Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:14 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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Jamie, what you wrote does not make sense. It seems that Muhammad was a "rocket scientist" to do all that work. He did not know how to read or write. And that's a miracle in itself. Ask a well educated, well-versed person to take all the said sources and come up with one book that millions would love to memorize. On second thought, ask him/her to come up with just one page that millions of people would love to memorize. Obviously, no one is able to do that. Let alone an illiterate person like Muhammad.
There are arguments about the sources of Christianity too:
Take care,
Mouhcine : o) |
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Happytofita
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 725
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| #60 (permalink) Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:33 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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| Happytofita wrote: |
| Jamie, what you wrote does not make sense. It seems that Muhammad was a "rocket scientist" to do all that work. He did not know how to read or write. And that's a miracle in itself. Ask a well educated, well-versed person to take all the said sources and come up with one book that millions would love to memorize. On second thought, ask him/her to come up with just one page that millions of people would love to memorize. Obviously, no one is able to do that. Let alone an illiterate person like Muhammad. |
In the first place, it's well known that in illiterate cultures people are trained to memorize more things and more easily. (You can even see the difference today between teenagers who were educated in schools that stress memorization and those who were not.) So, if Mohammed was illiterate (which he may not have been), it is no miracle that he could remember things he heard Jews and Christians say long enough to recite them to his followers and have them write the things down. (And with all the contradictions in the Koran, it's very probable that Mohammed didn't remember half the stuff two weeks after he'd recited it.) This would, of course, explain the fact that parts of the Koran are lifted from the Jewish Talmud out of context, or that it contains near verbatim quotations from apocryphal, heretical and even legitimate Christian scriptures, while leaving out context that's vital to their interpretation. It was already pointed out by Christian observers in the 8th century how these omissions distorted Muslim religious practice.
What does the fact that millions of people love to memorize something have to do with anything? How does that make something legitimate scripture? Millions of people also like to memorize jokes. Does the fact that millions of people memorize the same jokes make them somehow miraculous? |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6556
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| I Strongly prefer English Literature | John Milton |
