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 #62 (permalink) Thu Jun 04, 2009 15:26 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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| Aryam wrote: |
| Mr Jamie let me tell you something, the concept of stoned to death directed to adulterer and adulteress who are married, but those are single and when they adultery so thier sentences is hundred lashes, and must leave thier country for one year, Adultery,as everybody knows is forbidden in Islam and in Christianity too, and it's not |
It is typical of Muslims, in my direct experience with them, to be unable to comprehend how savage these punishments are, and how the murder of the adulteress (since Muslims virtually never kill the adulterer) is an enormous waste of a life, and of the potential good that can come from that life after the sinner has been converted. Christians believe in converting the sinner, not killing him, because that former sinner can become one of the holiest of people. That is one of the reasons we don't murder them for comparatively less grave sins, as Muslims do. There are plenty of former adulterers who devote their lives to converting others to a life of chastity and sanctity, but under Islamic law they would be dead and could never exert that influence to bring people to God. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #63 (permalink) Thu Jun 04, 2009 16:43 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Aryam wrote: |
| Adultery,as everybody knows is forbidden in Islam and in Christianity too, and it's not Jesus (peace be upon him) or our prophet say that, but God forbidden Adultery and of course our prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) |
Jesus's approach was fundamentally different from the Islamic approach:
ﻳﻮﺣﻨﺎ 8
1 وَأَمَّا يَسُوعُ، فَذَهَبَ إِلَى جَبَلِ الزَّيْتُونِ.
2 وَعِنْدَ الْفَجْرِ عَادَ إِلَى الْهَيْكَلِ، فَاجْتَمَعَ حَوْلَهُ جُمْهُورُ الشَّعْبِ، فَجَلَسَ يُعَلِّمُهُمْ.
3 وَأَحْضَرَ إِلَيْهِ مُعَلِّمُو الشَّرِيعَةِ وَالْفَرِّ يسِيُّونَ امْرَأَةً ضُبِطَتْ تَزْنِي، وَأَوْقَفُوهَا فِي الْوَسَطِ،
4 وَقَالُوا لَهُ: «يَامُعَلِّمُ، هَذِهِ الْمَرْأَةُ ضُبِطَتْ وَهِيَ تَزْنِي.
5 وَقَدْ أَوْصَانَا مُوسَى فِي شَرِيعَتِهِ بِإِعْدَامِ أَمْثَالِهَا رَجْماً بِالْحِجَارَةِ، فَمَا قَوْلُكَ أَنْتَ؟»
6 سَأَلُوهُ ذَلِكَ لِكَيْ يُحْرِجُوهُ فَيَجِدُوا تُهْمَةً يُحَاكِمُونَهُ بِهَا. أَمَّا هُوَ فَانْحَنَى وَبَدَأَ يَكْتُبُ بِإِصْبَعِهِ عَلَى الأَرْضِ.
7 وَلكِنَّهُمْ أَلَحُّوا عَلَيْهِ بِالسُّؤَالِ، فَاعْتَدَلَ وَقَالَ لَهُمْ: «مَنْ كَانَ مِنْكُمْ بِلاَ خَطِيئَةٍ فَلْيَرْمِهَا أَوَّلاً بِحَجَرٍ!»
8 ثُمَّ انْحَنَى وَعَادَ يَكْتُبُ عَلَى الأَرْضِ.
9 فَلَمَّا سَمِعُوا هَذَا الْكَلاَمَ انْسَحَبُوا جَمِيعاً وَاحِداً تِلْوَ الآخَرِ، ابْتِدَاءً مِنَ الشُّيُوخِ. وَبَقِيَ يَسُوعُ وَحْدَهُ، وَالْمَرْأَةُ وَاقِفَةٌ فِي مَكَانِهَا.
10 فَاعْتَدَلَ وَقَالَ لَهَا: «أَيْنَ هُمْ أَيَّتُهَا الْمَرْأَةُ؟ أَلَمْ يَحْكُمْ عَلَيْكِ أَحَدٌ مِنْهُمْ؟» |
There are some fallacies, Islam religion came to respond to the charges attributed to Jesus (عليه السلام) and one of them as you said (Jesus is God)..
And I don't believe that Jesus (عليه السلام) said this...but the Bible shows that Jesus had condemned adultery, and no prophets said or did what he want, but they had been divinely chosen to spread God's message. |
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 Aryam
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| #64 (permalink) Thu Jun 04, 2009 17:16 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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[quote="Jamie (K)"][quote="Aryam"]
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
Here is an answer to that:
It's typical of Muslims, in my experience, that they claim Islam is peaceful, but when Islam's warlike doctrines are exposed, they either claim that the Muslim clergyman is "not Muslim" or they blame his words on the West. You accused the West of trying to blur the picture, but you expressed no disagreement with what the man said. This is typical of Muslims. They don't like their violent doctrines to be exposed, but they also don't disagree with them. |
Yes I'm proud to say that my religion is peaceful and it is. It also calls for love,Brotherhood, fraternity and respect the others, Whatever thier religions is, but don't believe everything that was said about Islam,because only true Muslims are able to show you the right Islam, many people explain Islam as they want it to be..
Unfortunately, Islam lost into several concepts, including that it is a religion of violence and murder, so I am not obliged to agree with that man in this video, because I know my religion very well. |
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Aryam
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| #65 (permalink) Thu Jun 04, 2009 19:20 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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Jamie can you give me one Ayah from Quran that tells The adulterer or adulteress must be killed in Islam?
You will not find it ... then , we all should think about this claim and where did it come from!
Thank you
Jam
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Jamilion
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| #66 (permalink) Thu Jun 04, 2009 23:19 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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Thank you, Tom, for taking the time. I am aware of most of the things you told me but I do have some questions.
| Prezbucky wrote: |
Nina, biblically speaking:
Adam was made by God, as we all are.
Jesus is the Son of God --God incarnate a little more than 2000 years ago -- sent to earth to die for everyone's sin. It is original sin, something Mother Theresa herself commited by being human and living past the "age of knowing" -- little kids, who cannot really make a decision to accept the Gospel and follow Christ, are exempted... at least that's what we were taught.
Adam's folly at the hands of the temptress (Eve) and Tempter (Satan -- the snake in the story of Eden) condemned all (except young kids) -- that was God's decree in Genesis. |
The concept of original sins does not exist in Islam. It is very foreign to me. How can a person be guilty of something not his fault? I don't see how exempting small children is any better. What we believe happened in the heaven was totally Adam's and Eve's fault alone. Not us. And they were forgiven after they repented.
And this is also God's way of telling people that humans sin, and that sins can be forgiven. Not condemned like that.
| Prezbucky wrote: |
Jews still await their savior, but to Christians He has already walked among us as God -- El Sheddai, Emmanuel, Lamb of God, Prince of Peace. He was Jewish by birth (mother). His main purposes were to teach us how to live and how to avoid eternal damnation -- eternity in hell/hades/sheol. Not one of us could defeat Sin without it, so Jesus allowed the Romans to beat, flog and nail him to a wooden cross. His blood pays the price for Adam's Original Sin for anyone who would believe. He allowed that to be done to him... spent hours of agony on that cross. When he died the Jewish temple's curtain was torn in half and the earth shook (or some such things).
He was buried in a sort of cave and a watch was posted. Three days later he rose -- the stone was rolled away.
Jesus then told the Disciples that everything belongs to Him... and to spread the Word, so that others might be saved and shown the good path.
That's more or less biblical. |
Where is the logic in that? God is all forgiving. God is all merciful. I think we can agree on that. If this is true, how can the almighty one be so merciless as to impose such pain to a man so that others can sin? And Jesus, peace and blessings be upon him, prayed that God would save him.
Indeed, in the Koran, he was saved. The Koran says that it was made to appear to men that the crucifixion happened. So historically speaking, the Koran did not deny that the witnesses did see the crucifixion.
Still, if it did happen, how did that make Jesus, a God? And the fact that he prayed is very troubling for me. Can you honestly accept that God prayed?
| Prezbucky wrote: |
And here are the two most important things, according to Him:
1) Love God
2) Love your neighbor as yourself
Of course when he said "Love the Lord your God..." he was also saying "Love me..." since he knew he was God, simply in human form.
Ugh.
I'm not a preacher. LOL |
This is one of the teachings that we share. In Islam, one is not allowed to make an extension of his house if it would shadow his neighbours from the light of the sun. This is how Islam teaches people to treat their neighbours.
And this is what the Muslims scholars meant when they said that Islam did not come to cancel the teachings of Jesus. Like any other prophets of God, one of the miracles that he had was to cure diseases. The disease that was consuming people at that time was worldly matters, and he was trying to get people to leave it.
In Islam, one of the names that he was called, was Ruhullah, literally, the spirit of Allah. He was the embodiment of spirituality. He rarely eats or sleeps, and he was also without a spouse. And that is why, the highest state in Christianity is to emulate this.
| Prezbucky wrote: |
as for the mystery of the Holy Trinity, I think of it this way:
God is H2O
- God the Father (Yahweh) is ice
- Jesus Christ is water
- The Holy Spirit is water vapor
All are water; all are God.
Buenos noches! |
I hate to break this to you, this analogy doesn't work for me because water can exist in a whole different state called plasma. ;) |
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NinaZara
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| #67 (permalink) Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:02 pm Christians And Muslims United |
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[quote="NinaZara"]Thank you, Tom, for taking the time. I am aware of most of the things you told me but I do have some questions.
| Prezbucky wrote: |
Nina, biblically speaking:
Adam was made by God, as we all are.
Jesus is the Son of God --God incarnate a little more than 2000 years ago -- sent to earth to die for everyone's sin. It is original sin, something Mother Theresa herself commited by being human and living past the "age of knowing" -- little kids, who cannot really make a decision to accept the Gospel and follow Christ, are exempted... at least that's what we were taught.
Adam's folly at the hands of the temptress (Eve) and Tempter (Satan -- the snake in the story of Eden) condemned all (except young kids) -- that was God's decree in Genesis. |
The concept of original sins does not exist in Islam. It is very foreign to me. How can a person be guilty of something not his fault? I don't see how exempting small children is any better. What we believe happened in the heaven was totally Adam's and Eve's fault alone. Not us. And they were forgiven after they repented.
And this is also God's way of telling people that humans sin, and that sins can be forgiven. Not condemned like that.
Well Adam and Eve were temptress by satan, because God created Satan before Adam, and when God created Adam he asked him and Angels to bow down for Adam. The Angels did but satan refused and told to God how can I bow down for him? you created him from clay and you created me from fire, so that's why Satan temptress him, and also he promised God to temptress all the humanity except God's sincere worshippers.
Yes that's right there's no concept of original sins, God created us to worship him and don't disbelief in him.
| Prezbucky wrote: |
Jews still await their savior, but to Christians He has already walked among us as God -- El Sheddai, Emmanuel, Lamb of God, Prince of Peace. He was Jewish by birth (mother). His main purposes were to teach us how to live and how to avoid eternal damnation -- eternity in hell/hades/sheol. Not one of us could defeat Sin without it, so Jesus allowed the Romans to beat, flog and nail him to a wooden cross. His blood pays the price for Adam's Original Sin for anyone who would believe. He allowed that to be done to him... spent hours of agony on that cross. When he died the Jewish temple's curtain was torn in half and the earth shook (or some such things).
He was buried in a sort of cave and a watch was posted. Three days later he rose -- the stone was rolled away.
Jesus then told the Disciples that everything belongs to Him... and to spread the Word, so that others might be saved and shown the good path.
That's more or less biblical. |
Where is the logic in that? God is all forgiving. God is all merciful. I think we can agree on that. If this is true, how can the almighty one be so merciless as to impose such pain to a man so that others can sin? And Jesus, peace and blessings be upon him, prayed that God would save him.
Indeed, in the Koran, he was saved. The Koran says that it was made to appear to men that the crucifixion happened. So historically speaking, the Koran did not deny that the witnesses did see the crucifixion.
Still, if it did happen, how did that make Jesus, a God? And the fact that he prayed is very troubling for me. Can you honestly accept that God prayed?
No there's no logic here, first Jesus (عليه السلام) was not killed, but he was rise by God. |
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Aryam
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| #68 (permalink) Sat Jun 06, 2009 0:24 am Christians And Muslims United |
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Hello,
I think I have said some ruthless things that I should not have mentioned, because I do not think they are Islamically sanctioned. I think we have paved a lot adversities on the road of "Christians And Muslims United".
I apologize for everything.
Tom, pardon us for straying far away from "Christians And Muslims United".
Take care,
Mouhcine |
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Happytofita
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| #69 (permalink) Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:35 am Christians And Muslims United |
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God's actions don't have to be logical -- the Lord answers to no philosopher. Original sin is biblical, logical or not -- all, even those who try to be perfect (not possible), have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Adam and Eve were an experiment by God. He created them in His image. When they messed up, he condemned them and all who would follow. Later on he chose his people -- the seed of Israel (Jacob) and gave them the Promised Land. Still the rest were condemned, so to speak. The world needed a savior -- someone to pay for both the sins of Adam and any we might commit in our own lives. Biblically speaking, Jesus was necessary.
So it might not be logical -- to us -- to condemn an entire species for the misdeeds of two people, but that's essentially what happened.
So then comes the question:
How did those who lived before Jesus' time escape hell?
That I don't know -- I don't know the Old Testament as well as I should -- but there are those who could answer. Google might come in handy there.
Thomas a Kempis, in his "Imitation of Christ", said the following (I may be paraphrasing):
- Man proposes, but God disposes.
God's decree is what matters, not what we think about things.
Some people think they are their own judges, but to me, we all answer to God.
One of the most powerful verses in the Bible is this (again, paraphrasing):
- Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
The implication is that if it isn't done while a person is alive, that person will do it when he is dead and in front of God for eternal judgment.
Throughout the New Testament are other examples that Jesus believed he was God's only begotten Son. The Great Commission is but one example.
Why did he cry out to the Father on the Cross? Who knows? He was in human guise so he was likely in a lot of pain. He also told one of those being crucified with him that because of that man's profession of faith, the criminal would go to heaven. (which tells us that no matter what we do, the blood is powerful enough to cover it, if we accept the gift).
Ugh, it's hard to do this on a phone. LOL
And I may be rambling, so I'll end with this. For anyone who's interested, here are some of my favorite biblical passages:
- John 3 (John chapter 3)
- Romans 10:9-10 (Romans chapter 10, verses 9 & 10)
- 1 Corinthians 13
- Matthew 5
- Psalm 23
- Matthew 7:12-14
- Matthew 28
- John 20:24-29
- Isaiah 40:29-31
- Revelation 22:7-21
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Prezbucky
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| #70 (permalink) Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:01 am Christians And Muslims United |
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In fact... my favorite book (aside from the Gospel books -- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) in the Bible is probably Romans, which was written by Paul... who wrote about half of the New Testament and did more in Jesus' service than maybe anyone. To Catholics he is Saint Paul. A city in Minnesota and at least one giant cathedral are named after him. (just thinking out loud here)
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Prezbucky
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| #71 (permalink) Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:39 am Christians And Muslims United |
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| NinaZara wrote: |
| Where is the logic in that? God is all forgiving. God is all merciful. I think we can agree on that. If this is true, how can the almighty one be so merciless as to impose such pain to a man so that others can sin? |
But you believe in an all-forgiving, all merciful God whose "prophet" called in his name for the painful murder of certain sinners rather than for their conversion in this life, and whose law calls for amputations and other savage punishments for various sins. If God were all-forgiving and all merciful, he would not have his prophet order people's torture and murder. Mohammed did this. Jesus did not. Therefore, Mohammed was not a prophet of God. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #72 (permalink) Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:42 am Christians And Muslims United |
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| Happytofita wrote: |
| Actually, that's a good question. If Koran is full of contradictions, why do people memorize it? |
That's a nonsequitur, Happy.
The real question is, If the Koran is not full of contradictions, then why does Islam need a doctrine of abrogation? |
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Jamie (K)
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| #73 (permalink) Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:45 am Christians And Muslims United |
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| NinaZara wrote: |
Has anyone here actually experienced hatred because of the beliefs you hold? I have experienced this personally. There was an incident when I was still in Japan, I went to an area called Shin-okubo to buy some halal meat. I went with a friend who was wearing the hijab, we were totally minding our own business and suddenly out of nowhere a white guy came and stood in front of us and shouted "F#&!", right to our face, repeatedly.
I can only assume that the fellow was displeased by her attire. What humiliation.
If you want to talk about hatred, this is the reality. |
Just words. I don't think it compares to cutting people's heads off while screaming "Allahu akhbar," or flying airplanes into buildings screaming the same thing, or putting explosives on children or the mentally disabled to blow people up while they are eating pizza or celebrating a wedding.
If you want to talk about hatred, THAT is the reality. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #74 (permalink) Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:29 am Christians And Muslims United |
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| NinaZara wrote: |
If any Christian can tell me what can we know from Matthew 17:24-25.
| Quote: |
| "What do you think Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes – from their own sons or from others?" "From others" Peter answered. "Then the sons are exempt" Jesus said to him." |
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We can know that at the time Jesus walked the earth the temple tax was charged to foreigners and not to the king's subjects. Jesus said, "The subjects are exempt." He was stating a fact of life at the time, he was not calling for foreigners to be charged taxes that the king's subjects weren't. If you had read to the end of the paragraph you'll see he was basically saying, "Okay, let's pay the tax and get it over with."
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Islam was not the first to practice this. You can find it in the Bible too. In fact, in Joshua 16:10, you can read that Joshua had enslaved the people of Canaan. |
Of course, but many of the practices of the ancients are not acceptable today, and were clearly not acceptable in Muslim-occupied parts of Europe.
| NinaZara wrote: |
| And what is this talk about the Qur'an being plagiarized from the Jewish Talmud? |
Some parts from the Jewish Talmud, some parts from non-canonical Christian scriptures, and some from pre-Islamic Jewish or pagan legends.
| NinaZara wrote: |
| Honestly, I have never read Jewish Talmud, so I really don't know how to compare. But it is an interesting information. I would love to know more about it. After all, if this is true, my faith is at stake here. I can never accept that Qur'an is imperfect. And that is the reason I reject Christianity in its form today. (And please remember that I am speaking here now from a standpoint of a Muslim.) |
I have a book somewhere that has excerpts from the Talmud that appear in the Koran almost verbatim, except that Mohammed left the passages out of context, so in Islam their meaning is a bit mysterious, but in full context in the Talmud they make perfect sense without the intervention of a scriptural scholar.
There have been numerous studies of these sources, but I don't have them at my fingertips. Some basics are on these pages:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Goldsack/Sources/chap3.htm
Pardon some of the junk on this page, but it gives a list of sources for much of what appears in the Koran.
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-koran-fairy-tales-dr-morey.htm
| NinaZara wrote: |
Many Christians today believe that the Bible is inerrant, but Rev. John Trigilio, Jr. and Rev. Kenneth Brighenti wrote in their book, 101 things everyone should know about the Bible that the Bible in fact is not inerrant, and those errors were in fact inevitable because they were written by men whom were inspired by God and therefore were influenced by writing styles and nuances. Some dismissed them as works of literature or poetry and they have to accept those errors just as they accept the miracles by Jesus.
And this is supposed to be the words of God. So I don't blame those Christians who think that the Bible is inerrant. Also, whenever I need to criticize it, I will have to be careful because I do believe a part of the Bible is true. |
Fr. Trigilio and Fr. Brighenti are both Catholic priests, and the book mainly speaks to Christians. What they are doing there is addressing the belief among some Christians that every word of the Bible is literally true, that everything it says happened really did happen exactly as the words say. Well, this obviously can't be true, because the Bible contains two somewhat differing creation stories, and some people's genealogies differ from one place to another. Some books are clearly allegorical, and one is even a long love poem. The Book of Revelation was written in the kind of symbolic language that persecuted groups use to spread their message around under the "radar" of the authorities, much as song writers sometimes did in the days of communism in Eastern Europe. These cannot be taken as statements of literal fact but have to be dealt with based on their original intent and understood in relation to the literary genre of their times.
What is stated in other books explaining the Bible (including some also by Fr. Trigilio) is that literal factual accuracy and scientific verification are irrelevant to scripture, because many narratives in and out of scripture convey truth without actually being true. Think of something like Aesop's Fables. Those little stories are full of truth, but no dove and crow spoke to each other, and no fox became exasperated when he couldn't reach some grapes. Where science is involved, it is relatively irrelevant to the truths presented in scripture, because spiritual truth can't be measured in laboratory experiments or in similar ways.
One example is the creation of Adam and Eve. We know from the way God designed the world that Adam probably emerged in some other way than by being formed literally from a bit of dirt, and that Eve was almost certainly not formed from Adam's rib. The story is the ancients' largely allegorical way of explaining the emergence of humanity and people's susceptibility to sin and temptation. So if some atheist says the story of Adam and Eve can't possibly be literally true, a knowledgeable Christian would probably agree, and say that it doesn't matter, because the spiritual truth conveyed is the real purpose of the story, not the factual errancy or inerrancy.
Christians and Jews subject their scripture to a sort of analysis that Muslims refuse to use with the Koran. Christians and Jews subject the Bible to historical, archeological, linguistic and comparative literary analysis, and so a good annotated Bible, or a good explanatory book on the Bible can tell us if certain parts have their origin outside of Judaism or Christianity and what the purpose of their adaptation to the Bible was, which parts are simply mythical and included just for instructional purposes, etc. That type of scrutiny is allowed in those religions. Muslims don't like admitting that any of the Koran was taken from other sources, and when non-Muslim scholars can point to the obvious sources of many parts of it, Muslims simply deny it. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #75 (permalink) Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:41 am Christians And Muslims United |
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| Prezbucky wrote: |
God's actions don't have to be logical -- the Lord answers to no philosopher. Original sin is biblical, logical or not -- all, even those who try to be perfect (not possible), have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Adam and Eve were an experiment by God. He created them in His image. When they messed up, he condemned them and all who would follow. Later on he chose his people -- the seed of Israel (Jacob) and gave them the Promised Land. Still the rest were condemned, so to speak. The world needed a savior -- someone to pay for both the sins of Adam and any we might commit in our own lives. Biblically speaking, Jesus was necessary.
So it might not be logical -- to us -- to condemn an entire species for the misdeeds of two people, but that's essentially what happened. |
In the Bible, God tells Adam and Eve quite clearly what the punishment would be for their sin, and it's clear we are all living that punishment today. The story can also be interpreted as an explanation of how humans came to differ from the animals in terms of their consciousness of sin and the fact that we have to work so much to live. God told them they would be fine if they didn't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They ate from it, and the propensity for good and evil have been the bane of humanity's existence since the beginning.
Catholics are taught that the pious people who died before Christ's act of salvation were more than likely in a place where they did not suffer but also did not yet experience the full presence and union with God that they would have in heaven. (The Christian conception of heaven is basically that of the bliss of God's presence. We don't think of it as the place where you get all the hot girls you want, can drink endless booze and do all the other things that aren't allowed on earth.) |
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Jamie (K)
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| I Strongly prefer English Literature | John Milton |
