Past Perfect tense - Only when 2 past sentences?

[Nene4english]

Hi All,

I have a question on the usage of Past Perfect. I know that it is used to specify the sequence when 2 past events are talked about. For ex:

1. I had discussed with him and wrote the letter (2 past sentences being: I discussed with him. I wrote the letter.)

My question(doubt) is..is past perfect used only when 2 PAST tense sentences are used OR can it to be used even when 2 sentences may not be in past(for ex: one present perfect and one past)?

For ex, are these sentences correct?

1. China had reported that it has been secretly increasing its gold reserves.
2. The invoice had been generated and has been posted to you.

Rgds,
Nene.

[Mister Micawber]

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Well, none of them are correct. Use past perfect only when there is a chance of confusion about which past event came first.

1. I discussed it with him and wrote the letter.-- The discussion obviously preceded the letter; ergo, simple past + simple past

1. China reported that it has been secretly increasing its gold reserves.-- Two past events, one extending potentially to the present; note that the report would have been made well after the first secret increases.

2. The invoice has been generated and posted to you.-- The order of events is again obvious; ergo, present perfect + present perfect for a past event related to the present communication.

What you suggest (past perfect +present perfect) does not work with any example sentences I can imagine. Perhaps another member can conceive one.
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_________________
Native English teacher at Mister Micawber's

[Nene4english]

Hi Micawber,

Thanks a lot for the reply. However, I would like to make some comments on it.

1. I am not sure why the first sentence is wrong. It may well be possible that "I wrote the letter" first and then "I discussed it with him". This is the reason I wanted to use the past perfect to make it clear that I discussed it with him first. In this case, what would be the sentence? Shouldn't it be "I had discussed it with him and wrote the letter"?

With the explanations given to other sentences, do you mean that the past perfect has to be used strictly when combining 2 PAST SENTENCES(SIMPLE PAST) into one single sentence and the sequence has to be made clear?

Rgds,
Nene.

[Mister Micawber]

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No. Use simple word order. A and B have the discussion occurring first, while C and D have the writing occurring first:

1A-- I discussed it with him and wrote the letter. (Since the pronoun precedes, it may refer to the letter or another topic.)
1B-- I discussed the letter with him and wrote it.
1C-- I wrote it and discussed the letter with him. (Since the pronoun precedes, it may refer to the letter or another topic.)
1D-- I wrote the letter and discussed it with him.

The past perfect has to be used strictly when combining 2 PAST SENTENCES(SIMPLE PAST) into one single sentence and the sequence has to be made clear? -- As far as the grammar point we are discussing, yes. There are other uses of the past perfect: it also serves for reported speech of past, present perfect and past perfect, and it also serves as an emphatic prior past.
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_________________
Native English teacher at Mister Micawber's

[Nene4english]

Hi Micawber,

Thanks again for the reply.

Now that I have the clarification on my examples, would you be kind enough to provide me some examples where 2 simple past tenses wouldn't make sense and have to use past perfect?

Rgds,
Nene.

[Mister Micawber]

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It is not a matter of making sense; it is a matter of clarity. How would you interpret the series of events in the following sentence?

I finished my dinner when she arrived.
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_________________
Native English teacher at Mister Micawber's

[Nene4english]

It is bit hard to interpret correctly but I would say, finishing dinner and her arrival have happend at the same.

[Mister Micawber]

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[Nene4english]

Hi Micawber,

So, can I conclude by saying that using Past perfect when talking about 2 past events is not a must when the "meaning" is clear enough and Past perfect must be used only when the sequence is not clear enough? I hope I got it.

So, this example can be written as:

I had finished my dinner before she arrived(please correct me if I am wrong).

Would this be correct as well(this was my initial question):

I had finished my dinner before she has arrived.

Rgds,
Nene.

[Mister Micawber]

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So, can I conclude by saying that using Past perfect when talking about 2 past events is not a must when the "meaning" is clear enough and Past perfect must be used only when the sequence is not clear enough? I hope I got it.-- Yes, you did.

So, this example can be written as:

I had finished my dinner before she arrived(please correct me if I am wrong).-- Wrong. Past perfect is not called for here; 'before' makes clear the order of events.

Would this be correct as well(this was my initial question): I had finished my dinner before she has arrived.-- No; the second is a not a simple past.
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_________________
Native English teacher at Mister Micawber's

[Nene4english]

I had finished my dinner before she arrived(please correct me if I am wrong).-- Wrong. Past perfect is not called for here; 'before' makes clear the order of events.

.[/quote]
May I know how can this be written using past perfect?

[Mister Micawber]

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'May I know' is incorrect; use 'Could you tell me'.

I had finished my dinner when she arrived.
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_________________
Native English teacher at Mister Micawber's

[Nene4english]

Hi Micawber,

Thanks a lot for all your clarifications. Those were very helpful.

Rgds,
Nene.