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 #2 (permalink) Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:40 am Why some students unable to use grammatical structure in daily life |
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You might look over your own many mistakes in the title of your post, and in its text, and ask yourself why you are also not able to use all the grammatical structures in your own language. Self-examination is a good start for understanding how people learn language.
There are a number of reasons why various people can't use grammatical structures they have learned in a second language. The reasons can be different for every person, but most people have a combination of them. Among the reasons are:
1. Some people don't try and are satisfied with bad grammar as long as people usually understand them. (Many of my students from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh fall into this category. I don't know why.)
2. Interference from their native language, or from some other foreign language that they know better.
3. Language study is done at the conscious level, but language for communication is largely processed at the subconscious level. Sometimes what has been studied consciously doesn't filter into the subconscious for communicative use, and if it does, it may take a long time to do so. It can take four to six months to really absorb a structure for actual use, if the student is practicing and trying.
4. Many students study from grammar and vocabulary books, but they don't expose themselves to natural language, such as reading, watching TV, etc. Students who don't immerse themselves in language in this way (especially those who don't read) don't absorb the structures.
Remember also that foreign language learning in real life does not involve learning a grammatical structure and then hanging vocabulary words on it. Under natural circumstances, the learner picks up entire collocations, phrases and sentences, and as time goes on, those decompose into grammar. So language is not really learned from small units to large, but more often from large units that eventually break up into smaller ones. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #3 (permalink) Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:20 am Why some students unable to use grammatical structure in daily life |
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If I check my writing carefully I don't make so many grammar mistakes. I make linguistic and typos especially here as I can't spellcheck what my writing. Bu what os a linguistic mistake really? If I write "I was to town yesterday" or if I write Yesterday I was to town. Even writers get their books proofread by someone else"
Do you mean that people who uses slang words or contractions don't use correct grammar? For example in the sentence "*Gimmie that book ?"
/Maria |
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 MariaEbb
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 231
Location: Sweden
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| #4 (permalink) Sat Jul 04, 2009 18:22 pm Why some students unable to use grammatical structure in daily life |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
You might look over your own many mistakes in the title of your post, and in its text, and ask yourself why you are also not able to use all the grammatical structures in your own language. Self-examination is a good start for understanding how people learn language.
There are a number of reasons why various people can't use grammatical structures they have learned in a second language. The reasons can be different for every person, but most people have a combination of them. Among the reasons are:
1. Some people don't try and are satisfied with bad grammar as long as people usually understand them. (Many of my students from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh fall into this category. I don't know why.)
2. Interference from their native language, or from some other foreign language that they know better.
3. Language study is done at the conscious level, but language for communication is largely processed at the subconscious level. Sometimes what has been studied consciously doesn't filter into the subconscious for communicative use, and if it does, it may take a long time to do so. It can take four to six months to really absorb a structure for actual use, if the student is practicing and trying.
4. Many students study from grammar and vocabulary books, but they don't expose themselves to natural language, such as reading, watching TV, etc. Students who don't immerse themselves in language in this way (especially those who don't read) don't absorb the structures.
Remember also that foreign language learning in real life does not involve learning a grammatical structure and then hanging vocabulary words on it. Under natural circumstances, the learner picks up entire collocations, phrases and sentences, and as time goes on, those decompose into grammar. So language is not really learned from small units to large, but more often from large units that eventually break up into smaller ones. |
I have been learning and working in environments where there are many English native speakers (in my country and also in the english speaking country). I agree with you that one must expose him/herself to the natural language, to speak out, to be able to use the language (in both speaking, writing) better. However, my questions are
Is this true that many native English speaking people (including ones who have high education(s)) also dont follow English grammar and structure? (cos I have found many mistakes in their writting, it's sometimes impossible for me to understand since I cant identify all parts of a sentence)
And what can one who is learning the language do to learn the Correct, but not the Incorrect language (from those native English speaking people)?
Thank you |
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Be.emily
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 40
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
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| #5 (permalink) Sat Jul 04, 2009 18:36 pm Why some students unable to use grammatical structure in daily life |
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Yes, it's true that many people in all English-speaking countries don't use correct grammar, even if they are educated. Part of the reason can be that they speak different dialects, but part of it is also that over the past few decades grammar education has fallen out of favor in the English-speaking world and many of these people have never been taught very much grammar. They just speak and write in a way that sounds correct to them.
The only way for you to deal with this situation is to balance out your interaction with those native speakers by reading a lot of good literature. The literature will get the right structures into your head, and you'll know when the native speakers are using nonstandard English.
Believe me, it's possible to do. I have an Iraqi friend who corrects her native-English-speaking coworkers' grammar all the time. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #6 (permalink) Sat Jul 04, 2009 19:38 pm Why some students unable to use grammatical structure in daily life |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
Yes, it's true that many people in all English-speaking countries don't use correct grammar, even if they are educated. Part of the reason can be that they speak different dialects, but part of it is also that over the past few decades grammar education has fallen out of favor in the English-speaking world and many of these people have never been taught very much grammar. They just speak and write in a way that sounds correct to them.
The only way for you to deal with this situation is to balance out your interaction with those native speakers by reading a lot of good literature. The literature will get the right structures into your head, and you'll know when the native speakers are using nonstandard English.
Believe me, it's possible to do. I have an Iraqi friend who corrects her native-English-speaking coworkers' grammar all the time. |
Very interesting. Thank you very much for your advice |
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Be.emily
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 40
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
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| #7 (permalink) Sat Jul 04, 2009 19:39 pm Why some students unable to use grammatical structure in daily life |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Yes, it's true that many people in all English-speaking countries don't use correct grammar, even if they are educated. |
That's a problem not only English native spikers, I'm afraid. More and more people from for example my country also cannot write properly and without mistakes in their native language - Polish. I think they just don't care about it, they don't want to learn how to use language in a proper way. It's terryfing but it's really common for young people. |
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Violino
You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 53
Location: Poland Gdynia
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| #8 (permalink) Sat Jul 04, 2009 19:44 pm Why some students unable to use grammatical structure in daily life |
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| Violino wrote: |
| It's terryfing but it's really common for young people. |
A lot of that is caused by texting and online chatting. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #9 (permalink) Sat Jul 04, 2009 19:59 pm Why some students unable to use grammatical structure in daily life |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Violino wrote: |
| It's terryfing but it's really common for young people. |
A lot of that is caused by texting and online chatting. |
Yes, you're right.
I see it on myself that because of reading many forums which people write with mistakes on, even I started having problems with writting properly in Polish. So many times I have to make sure something is right with the dictionary or other source.
So it's also caused by laziness, as many people don't even try to check out the propriety what they wrote. |
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Violino
You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 53
Location: Poland Gdynia
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| #10 (permalink) Sat Jul 04, 2009 20:14 pm Why some students unable to use grammatical structure in daily life |
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Great! Your remarks give me a real revealing insight into foreign lagnguage learning. Thank you very much, Jamie.
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
3. Language study is done at the conscious level, but language for communication is largely processed at the subconscious level. Sometimes what has been studied consciously doesn't filter into the subconscious for communicative use, and if it does, it may take a long time to do so. It can take four to six months to really absorb a structure for actual use, if the student is practicing and trying.
4. Many students study from grammar and vocabulary books, but they don't expose themselves to natural language, such as reading, watching TV, etc. Students who don't immerse themselves in language in this way (especially those who don't read) don't absorb the structures.
Remember also that foreign language learning in real life does not involve learning a grammatical structure and then hanging vocabulary words on it. Under natural circumstances, the learner picks up entire collocations, phrases and sentences, and as time goes on, those decompose into grammar. So language is not really learned from small units to large, but more often from large units that eventually break up into smaller ones. |
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Iwanna
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 111
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| #11 (permalink) Sat Jul 04, 2009 21:28 pm Why some students unable to use grammatical structure in daily life |
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I looked at my post number 3 and I saw I had missed a few letters in a few words. It would never happen if I use a pen or a pencil.
/Maria |
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MariaEbb
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 231
Location: Sweden
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