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 #2 (permalink) Sun Oct 11, 2009 20:16 pm "had" or not "had" |
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Rule of thumb: when there are two things that happened in the past, and one happened before the other, the first one should be in past perfect, the other one in simple past (or in some cases present perfect). The one in past perfect is often background information to the one in past simple.
In your example, "before" makes it clear that it had been John who performed the ceremony first, then father passed away afterwards. That is why I'd say "passed away" and "had been" are right here: no two "hads". Now, the verb "performed" could also be in a different tense; we'd need more context for that. What ceremony? Did he perform it once, or many times? Did it precede other things?
That said, it is possible that both clauses, with "passed away" and "had been", are background information to another sentence that is part of the main narrative; if so, that both clauses should probably be in past perfect if they happened before the main narrative. The main narrative itself is rarely, if ever, in past perfect. |
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 Cerberus™
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| #3 (permalink) Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:06 am "had" or not "had" |
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Hi Cerberus,
thank you for you reply.
In this case, I could also write:
Before Father passed away, it had been John's duty to perform the ceremony.
John performed the ceremony more than once, but now that his father died, the duty was passed down to his brother.
I didn't write the sentence this way, because it's implied in the text. Sorry about that. :wink:
I hope this clears things up.
Claudia
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Cgk
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| #4 (permalink) Tue Oct 13, 2009 20:46 pm "had" or not "had" |
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| Cgk wrote: |
Hi Cerberus,
thank you for you reply.
In this case, I could also write:
Before Father passed away, it had been John's duty to perform the ceremony. |
Looks fine to me.
| Quote: |
| John performed the ceremony more than once, but now that his father died, the duty was passed down to his brother. |
Why did you not choose the past perfect here as well? "John had performed the ceremony more than once, but, now that his father was dead (/had died), the duty was passed down to his brother".
"Was passed down" I take as the main narrative, in the simple past; the other two clauses both take place before it and provide background information for it, so that I'd put them in the past perfect.
I'd not write past simple "died" because it implies that the dying is the circumstance that the passing down took place in. For both are in the same tense and are connected by "now that", which means they took place simultaneously: but thatwas not the case, since dying normally happens in a split second; the duty was passed down after father's death.
Indeed you could say "he took the money from his father's bank account while the old man was dying", but then you'd use the verb in a different sense: that of "being in a bad condition that is likely to result in death some time soon", as opposed to "changing from a breathing human being into a dead body", which is what it means in your sentence.
| Quote: |
I didn't write the sentence this way, because it's implied in the text. Sorry about that. :wink:
I hope this clears things up.
Claudia |
I don't know which sentence you wrote and which one you didn't, but my comment stays the same regardless. No need to apologize! |
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Cerberus™
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| #5 (permalink) Tue Oct 13, 2009 21:43 pm Iphone 3G 16Gb |
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| Welcome! Perhaps you could also introduce yourself in the forum thread dedicated to new users' introducing themselves: there is one; I'm not sure where it is exactly, but you will find it. |
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Cerberus™
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 11 Feb 2009
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| #6 (permalink) Tue Oct 13, 2009 23:39 pm "had" or not "had" |
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Hello Cerberus!
Lol, now that I look at my last post, I realize how confusing it is! It's funny, really, and the only excuse I can give you is that it was 4 o'clock in the morning when I wrote my reply and I was very nervous about my eye surgery at 11:30 am.
I'm not sure if I'm going to be more intelligible now, because my eyes are troubling me a bit, but I'll give my best to explain:
| Cerberus™ wrote: |
Why did you not choose the past perfect here as well? "John had performed the ceremony more than once, but, now that his father was dead (/had died), the duty was passed down to his brother".
"Was passed down" I take as the main narrative, in the simple past; the other two clauses both take place before it and provide background information for it, so that I'd put them in the past perfect.
I'd not write past simple "died" because it implies that the dying is the circumstance that the passing down took place in. For both are in the same tense and are connected by "now that", which means they took place simultaneously: but that was not the case, since dying normally happens in a split second; the duty was passed down after father's death. |
I didn't choose the past perfect here because I never meant to use the sentence in a simple past narrative. I was just trying to explain what I meant by the sentence "Before Father passed away, it had been John who performed the ceremony" as a reply to your statement: Now, the verb "performed" could also be in a different tense; we'd need more context for that. But thank you, nonetheless! I appreciate you explaining the past perfect to me by using my blabbering as an example. I really do need to take a crash course to learn the intricacies of the tenses!
| Cerberus™ wrote: |
| I don't know which sentence you wrote and which one you didn't, but my comment stays the same regardless. No need to apologize! :D |
The sentence I want to use in my narrative is: "Before Father passed away, it had been John who performed the ceremony."
What I mean to express with it is: It was John's duty to perform the ceremony when Father was still alive, but after Father's passing, the ceremony became the duty of John's brother, who, btw., is the viewpoint character.
I was wondering if the tenses of the sentence I want to use in my narrative is correct ... and oh, my goodness, I need to go offline now before my head starts to spin and my eyes start to bleed and my babbling becomes so bad that everyone on here will start to believe that I have a screw loose ...
Thank you so much for your patience!
Claudia
P.S.: Perhaps I could write: "John had performed the ceremony before Father's passing", but I don't like the tone and it doesn't go well with the rest of the paragraph.
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