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 Mon Oct 17, 2005 23:28 pm How international is toeic? |
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Hi :
what ever , personally , i care for getting TOEIC high score .
Are you from middle east ?? |
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| Tue Oct 18, 2005 0:02 am High toeic score |
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| Why do you care so much about the TOEIC? What does your TOEIC score mean to you? As for me, I'm not for the Middle East, what makes you think so? |
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spearhead
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| Tue Oct 18, 2005 14:57 pm How international is toeic? |
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How international is the toeic?
In Japan, Korea, Taiwan it's a must, and it's becoming more popular in China and Europe as well. So you can take a guess, how widely recognized this exam is.  |
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| Tue Oct 18, 2005 21:46 pm Toeic international? |
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| I'm well aware that the TOEIC is used in many countries. That's why I wonder why all the speakers in the listening comprehension part of the TOEIC are white US Americans. Why does the listening comprehension part not reflect the fact that English is spoken by business people from around the world who have different cultural and ethnical backgrounds? |
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spearhead
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| Tue Oct 18, 2005 23:34 pm How international is toeic? |
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Hi ;
I am the guest who asked if you are from middle east , because these are their ideas , you are on the other side ,just feeling colour discrimination , leave all aside , erase your brain background of those culutral factors .
we are all humans in one village called earth planet .
I feel and know very well , what is the humans suffering .
just tell us which culture do you defend ??
Regards my brither in humanity . |
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| Tue Oct 18, 2005 23:39 pm Toeic international? |
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| Hi guest, I'm not defending any culture. I'm merely stating the fact that at this point the listening comprehension questions of the TOEIC don't reflext cultural diversity or ethnic reality on planet earth as you call it. So, instead of trying to pin down my cultural background you could as well express our opinion on the fact I've stated. |
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spearhead
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| Wed Oct 19, 2005 0:26 am How international is toeic? |
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| spearhead wrote: | | toeic stands for test of international communication, yet, all the speakers in the audio questions are US american! |
Spearhead, it happens because of a simple reason: it makes listening comprehension much easier to understand. You have to get used to a particular intonation. The exams checks your knowlegde of language, not your ability to recognize different accents and intonation. It works the same with British exams and within GB itself people speak differently and are sometimes difficult to understand.
From my learning experience I can remember that I couldn't understand British and Australian English on TV for some time, even though I could understand American English without any problems. It is very individual thing how long it takes. If there were records of the people from all over the world on the tapes during the exam, it would be a disadvantage for those who have not such a wide range of international contacts. |
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katarzyna
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 48
Location: Warsaw, POLAND
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| Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:51 am How international is toeic? |
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I'm another quest, who doesn't care any cultures, just stays on target and concerned in a high toeic score.
Color discrimination?
Cultural diversity or ethnic reality?
Are you serious, guys?  Hello! Hello! Wake up! 
As it's written in the previous post, the toeic is difficult enough, no need to make it more tough with different accents. Moreover, in a real international environment, you have to understand a lot of different (and sometimes strong!) ESL accents as well. You mean these accents should also be included , just to reflect the atmosphere of international business?
And if you were really familiar with the toeic, you would know that in part VI. there's a lot of foreign name, address, etc from all over the World. So i have to say that toeic definitely reflects cultural diversity. |
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| Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:41 am How international is toeic? |
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| katarzyna wrote: | Spearhead, it happens because of a simple reason: it makes listening comprehension much easier to understand. You have to get used to a particular intonation. The exams checks your knowlegde of language, not your ability to recognize different accents and intonation. It works the same with British exams and within GB itself people speak differently and are sometimes difficult to understand.
From my learning experience I can remember that I couldn't understand British and Australian English on TV for some time, even though I could understand American English without any problems. It is very individual thing how long it takes. If there were records of the people from all over the world on the tapes during the exam, it would be a disadvantage for those who have not such a wide range of international contacts. |
Hello Katarzyna. I can see the point you are trying to make. But then again, why should the listing comprehension section of the TOEIC be easy? Why should it not reflect the reality? If you call a customer who lives in Scotland, do you think they are going to change the way they speak only because your mother tongue is not English? You say that the TOEIC checks only your knowledge of the English language. I'm afraid I can't agree. According to ETS the TOEIC measures their English comprehension, speaking, writing and reading skills in an international environment.
So, the TOEIC measures your comprehension skills not just your theoretical knowledge. Comprehension skills in an international environment. The question is, how does ETS define international? Have you ever heard a Finish person speak English? Or a French person? Or a Norwegian for that matter. Wouldn't you agree that their accents are quite different from the US American English that is spoken in the TOEIC test? |
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spearhead
You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Oslo
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| Thu Oct 20, 2005 19:36 pm How international is toeic? |
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| spearhead wrote: | | The question is, how does ETS define international? Have you ever heard a Finish person speak English? Or a French person? Or a Norwegian for that matter. Wouldn't you agree that their accents are quite different from the US American English that is spoken in the TOEIC test? |
Umm, well, in that case toeic is not for you.
You should look for another English exam, which contains US, British, and ESL accents with wrong pronunciation as well. Good luck.
O, i almost forgot it. To answer your original question, why american pronunciation, this is because US English is the spoken languge among ESL speakers in an international environment. |
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| Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:26 am How international is toeic? |
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| Anonymous wrote: | Umm, well, in that case toeic is not for you.
You should look for another English exam, which contains US, British, and ESL accents with wrong pronunciation as well. Good luck.
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Why do ESL accents come with wrong pronunciation? Are you saying that somebody who speaks English as a second language are not able to pronounce English words properly? Why should an examination provider feature speakers make mistakes in their pronunication? They could as well use ESL speakers who have a clear and correct pronunciation.
| Anonymous wrote: | | O, i almost forgot it. To answer your original question, why american pronunciation, this is because US English is the spoken languge among ESL speakers in an international environment. |
This is your personal opinion which lacks factual backing. Why should a European based company stick to American English when their international units communicate with each other? Why should a British company that has European subsidaries use American English in their corporate communication? Do you really think that everybody at Nokia or the BBC (both are international companies) speaks American English?
Also, the original question was in the listening comprehension section of the TOEIC only white educated Americans are featured? Even if we agreed that the TOEIC should use only Americans, why not feature a person with a southern or west coast accent? Why not use an Italian American? Oh, yes I know what you are going to answer: "But in international business everyone speaks like the people on the TOEIC". And I guess that would really conclude this discussion. |
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spearhead
You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Oslo
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| Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:36 am How international is toeic? |
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| In my job I hear all kinds of accents - those of native speakers as well as ESL. So far I haven't had any difficulties in understanding any of them. In addition, there are plenty of opportunities for me in Oslo to practice my listening skills as there live and work a lot of people from English speaking countries in our city. The question is, does an exam have to measure your ability to understand accents that are different from the standard US American. I'm focusing on the TOEIC here because the TOEIC claims to be the test of English for international commuication. To my knowledge no other English exam says it tests a candidate's ability to communicate in an international environment. Or to put my question differently: What exactly makes the TOEIC so international? |
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spearhead
You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Oslo
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| Sun Oct 23, 2005 17:31 pm How international is toeic? |
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| spearhead wrote: | | The question is, does an exam have to measure your ability to understand accents that are different from the standard US American. |
The is problem with different accents that it would bring substantial amount of non-objective elements into the exam.
I'll try to explain it later. Now let's suppose this statement is right.
So if it's true, it would escpecially be a problem with the toeic, because it's principle is to measure receptive skills objectively. In the far-east certain score-levels are used to make decision in hiring or promotioning. That means similar scores should mean relatively similar knowledge. That's why toeic measures only receptive skills directly (listening+reading), because it's much more objective compared to exams containing speaking as well. The other reason is cost, but it doesn't matter here. So one of the biggest advantage of toeic is it's obective measuring. And it's also a disadvantage at the same time, becuase it doesn't measure speaking skills directly. And i'm not sure that somebody with an excellent toeic score is also very good at live talking.
Why including of different accents decreases obectivity?
Let's suppose we include 20 different accents to the exam. Okay. Hence, there's more than 180 countries on planet Earth, what about those examinees whose accents are not included? Are they having equal chance compared to the luckier ones whose dialects are in the 20 selected? And should a Chinese speaker for example always be familiar with French accent? Or vice versa.
I think this is the main reason, why no exams in the World contain ESL accents, whether they're international or not.
There are other reasons as well, but let's first see, how you react to this... 
And don't tell me, that an ESL speaker who is very advanced never makes pronunciation errors. I was told several times that whenever an ESL speaker open his/her mouth, he/she will be immediately considered as a foreigner. Although if the person is at advanced level, it won't influence understanding him/her.
| spearhead wrote: | | What exactly makes the TOEIC so international? |
To conclude , the factors which make toeic international are:
obective measuring and focusing on workplace environment (vocabulary, idioms). And yes, there is US dialect there, because "americans" were asked to create the test. |
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