Religion and Tolerance

[Bergdeutscher]

[Political Lurker]

[Cgk]

Andreas,

I do not think that the American government staged the 9/11 attacks for these five reasons:

There had been a previous attack during Bill Clinton's presidency in 1993. It was planned by Ramzi Yousef and financed by his uncle, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who later helped to plan the 9/11 attacks. The 1993 car bomb attack caused much damage to the lower floors of the World Trade Center. Mind you, this happened while Bill Clinton was in office.

The 1993 and 9/11 attacks made America look vulnerable. It is not good for any country to have a weakness or vulnerability exposed.

It would have been too risky to arouse the anger of the American people against their government if there was sufficient proof that their own politicians were indeed responsible, and not terrorists. No one can hide something as big as this forever. There would be a great amount of confidants who would know about the staging of the attack. How would you get them all to keep their mouths shut about it? There would have to be a lot of bribe money to be paid!

The cost to start a war with a country and to sustain it for a prolonged period of time is much too high. The Iraq war cost the American nation a fortune. The troops in Iraq to help rebuild the country after the war costs the American nation a fortune. America has fallen even more into dept than it already was. You might say "oil" was the reason, but as we all know, it takes a fortune to invest in establishing and maintaining Iraq's oil production. Most of Iraq's soil is still unexplored and it has relatively few oil fields that are actually producing oil. It would just not be a profitable thing to do. The money would be much better spent on America's own oil resources. Also America would and could not be the only country to invest in Iraq's oil production. Recently some international "oil giants" have announced that they are planning on (seven years after the war!) establishing oil fields in Iraq, which will fill Iraq's coffers. If the Americans were only out for oil, they would not pay Iraq a cent for its oil and protest against the international oil giants' plans.

If the American government was indeed out for war, they could have done so even without staging such an attack. They could have come up with a much easier, simpler reason than hijacking four planes and flying them into buildings.

As soon as there is a group of people planning something in secret, it is a conspiracy. As long as there is no proof of something truly being the result of a conspiracy, it remains a theory. Hence: conspiracy theory.

Claudia
_________________
In the land of the ignorant, the biggest fool is king.

[AndrewB]

Well ok, Claudia,
call it Conspiracy, if you want. No matter. There are always reasons for everything one wants to point out, I guess. But to say that one thing is cheaper and the other thing is more expensive, might be nonsense, if you speak about US.
Slavery was very, very expensive compared to the industry of the northern states, especially some years before the secession war. Nevertheless the Southern states wanted their system to stay forever. The fear of changing was stronger than the question of money.
The secession war was a one of the biggest losses the whole American nation - can it really be called one nation? - ever had. Nevertheless it was fought until the bitter end.
Don't talk about the costs of the Vietnam war!
President George W. Bush was really h o r n y on the war he wanted to fight in Iraq. Why? Didn't he think about the possible costs? Wasn't Afghanistan enough? Maybe it was a private affair between him and Saddam Hussein. Why should the American people pay for it?
Back to 9/11: Do you really think it is possible for an airplane to destroy such a building like one of those towers so totally, that there's only dust over? Dust where it is only possible to find a piece of an identity card just telling the name of one of the terrorists? You really can do it with a lot of very good placed explosive charges to be detonate just in time, but you never would be able to work it out with an airplane.
And if there were terrorist attacks before, why didn't the CIA take a better watch?
And did you know, that 14 days after 9/11 Osama Bin Laden was still sleeping on a bed of an American hospital in Kuwait, and the American ambassador visited him about 8 or 9 days after 9/11? Don't you see the show these guys are playing? The simple people in the world are a thankful audience and trusty like sheep.
If you have power and measures to plan and carry out such an adventure, you even could do it as a German. Hitler showed once what could be possible... Americans are easier ready to shoot, you can watch it in a lot of western movies. They still fight for their right to keep guns in their homes.
A lot of those people still have "shotgun" mentalities, I am sure. And where you find a gun, you can find a dead man or woman very soon. No matter what nation, race or religion...
The American mentality is different, I know, and no one could put all those people in one and only pot. (I am a big fan of Bob Dylan for example, he is an American, too, and as he says, "loving his country". But listen to the words of his songs!) But that "nation" is parted, is divided. Very much more divided than some other nations in the world. Since the secession war I guess.
I am corresponding with one person who is a fan of the republicans. And I was talking to some people who where supporters of the democrats. Sometimes it seems very crazy to me, because they still seem to think the world is painted just in black and white only.
Conspiracy? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter. I say: They were looking for new enemies, because Soviet Union was fallen. They got new enemies. The trouble is, that these new "enemy borders" are not only American ones, but spread out through the whole world. So it was also very, very dangerous, what they did, and if they would look into a mirror, they could see Osama Bin Laden and his followers... with a big grin in their faces...
Wishing you a nice weekend,
Andreas

[Bergdeutscher]

Andrew, it makes no sense to respond to dull anti-Americanism. I think, the topic is tiresome.

Jamie, the thing with the date was only a joke. -> Joke <- you understand? No wonder you missunderstood me with building 7. Are you really an Irishman? My English is bad, but not incomprehensible. But is this the reason why you as an Irishman are in an English learning forum?

[AndrewB]

Hey, man, Bergdeutscher,

are you only able to discuss by putting people into bins? You are allowed to do so, why not? I cannot force you to understand the lines I have written.
And if you find the topic "tiresome", why do you give attention to it? There's a lot of other topics, how I can see, and you are free to start one for yourself.
I really wish you some more creativity.

Have a good time,
Andreas

[Bergdeutscher]

[Political Lurker]

Andrew bring Bergdeutscher the head of John the Baptist so we can move on. :-)

#


And the version that changed music forever


Bergdeutscher Its Friday night so Mellow out Baby!! - It is quite clear you want to argue - unfortunately I only do that when there's a good chance I might lose! otherwise it sucks :-)
_________________
Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

[AndrewB]

Thanks for Bob Dylan, Jamie,
especially the last version is not in my collection yet. Else I've got almost everything by him, and for Bergdeutscher it might be interesting how much I like Country&Western music, too. I could offer him the head of John the Baptist, but I'm not sure if he knows who that ancient prophet. (A drama which happened in Israel, a country worthy to discuss, too...)
But back to the topic:
Last night I have been dancing in an African basement floor. A certain guy from Tanzania had invited me, and before the music event began we sat together and talked a lot. They came from different countries, but have lived in Germany already for years (2 from Mocambique, 1 from Senegal, 1 from Congo, the 1 from Tanzania and 1 from Libya). The guy from Libya was the only Muslim among them. For him the GAY people are to blame for all the trouble in the world, because they - so he said - are the ones who brought us AIDS.
In his eyes it was a giant scandal that Germany has got a gay minister in the government. So you all can see, how things are: In Germany a gay guy can become a member of the government, in Libya, I guess, they would cut off his head as soon as they get knowledge about it.
Well, everyone is happy, if he can walk through the streets of some town and there is no knife or fist or even bullet waiting for him.
In my eyes it is a good development, if you can feel secure on a certain place of the world. In these special religious countries you cannot if you do not share their ideology or way of life. It is always possible to meet the "wrong persons" who might fight you only because they are aggressive, but I want to put my attention at the atmosphere, the climate of the country itself.
Even that guy from Libya became more peaceful after having smoked some joints (which are not forbidden by Allah as much as I know).
Wishing a beautiful Sunday for you all,
Andreas

[Political Lurker]

[AndrewB]

Oh, Jamie,

I don't care about things Bergddeutscher or Claudia can see or not. During the last days I am very often working on my computer (I began to write a new novel), and answering some posts in a forum thread is a Kind of nice break for me. They are somewhere in the world, and I don't mind them attacking anything I wrote. I always forget about it when I have written some lines in English, try to go on with my novel, and if I see a certain light showing me there's a new mail about a new post in the thread I take a look. Sometimes I find time for an answer, sometimes not in the same moment, but I don't care. It's a kind of game for me. May they be band wagon jumpers or groupies or what they like to be. I don't want to marry anyone, but if there suddenly might be someone who wants to steal horses with me, let's talk about it...
It's a very nice and easy English training, and especially that is why I like it.
I should try to take a look to another topic, but until today I was too lazy to.
Usually I like topics about literature or kinds of music, about mythologies even or history (especially American history I know better than German one, I guess), about the development of languages, about native people everywhere, about great biographies, about Kamasutra positions, just this kind.

Have a good time,
Andreas

[Mixmixi]

[AndrewB]

[Cgk]

Hi,

yes, Americans are generally honest and strong enough for self-criticism. It's a trait that I admire and sorely miss in our own culture. All everyone else can do is to point fingers at others because they don't want to face, or even see, the wrongs and injustices in their own area. Americans self-criticize, but what they are not aware of is how they provide a feeding ground for all the America-haters out there by doing so. If we (and I mean everybody, all religions, all nations, all persons) would look at ourselves more critically, we wouldn't even find the time to point fingers at others because we would be much too busy trying to right our own wrongs. Finger-pointing = hypocrisy. This is what my posts were about, simple as that.

I have been treated in a condescending manner, have been called "intolerant" and accused of "trying to control what everyone is allowed to say/not allowed to say" as well as of not understanding a thing. I was told to shut up and had to swallow the insinuation of being stupid for having the kind of opinions that I have, and my knowledge was doubted. I'm sick of it, and that is why I will discontinue the discussion with Andreas and Jamie once and for all. I prefer nice discussions and don't want to be treated in a shitty way.

Jamie, if you don't get off my back (you have done this to me in other threads before), I will assume that you have fallen in love with me. Perhaps this explains your strange reaction to Bergdeutscher's joke about asking me out for a date.

Claudia
_________________
In the land of the ignorant, the biggest fool is king.

[Cgk]

Hello Mixi,

this is why I distanced myself from Christianity (and any other religion) as well. I don't like any religion simply because they are institutions that too many people follow blindly. Too many wrongs are being done in the name of a religion or in the name of a God. I admit, I don't believe in a God, but I think it is okay for others to believe in a higher being. There is much wisdom to be found in every religion, but also a lot of nonsense and unjust statements. Unfortunately too many people focus on the nonsense rather than on wisdom. I'm atheist, a non-believer, so lots of people are under the impression that I have no morals because I have nothing to believe in, but morality comes from within and everybody should follow his or her heart without forgetting to also use the brain.

Claudia
_________________
In the land of the ignorant, the biggest fool is king.