The use of Past Perfect

[Lexiconkitty]

Hi Torsten,
I hope you would have the time to help me on this...but again I guess am
posting in the right section anyway.

Past perfects, I understand are used to delineate between different events
(that happened at different time sequence) in the past.

For example, George and his entire family had slept before the robbers sneaked into the house and bugled all the electrical appliances.
In time sequence, the family slept before robbers sneaked and (robbers) bugled.

Here is my confusion with the sentence below-don't know which is the correct ans:
Most of the homes that were destroyed in last summer’s bush fires were built with woodshake roofs.

(2) Last summer, bush fires destroyed most of the homes that were...
(3) Most of the homes that were destroyed in last summer’s bush fires had been...

what is the impact of the possessive (summer's fires) - original sentence;

Is there a change in meaning between "bush fire destroyed most of the homes..."
and "most of the homes that were destroyed"...option 2 & the original sentence respectively.

Is it correct to use past perfect in the sentence above(option 3)...

I would appreciate your assistance, please.

[Geo777]

Hi,
Why did you write bugled? A bugle means a brass wind instrument somewhat shorter than a trumpet and lacking keys or valves; to sound a bugle ? May be you meant a verb "to burgle".

"George and his entire family had slept before the robbers sneaked into the house and bugle all the electrical appliances."
I think it's better to write : George and all his family were sleeping when the robbers sneaked in the house and stole all (the) electrical appliances or When the robbers sneaked in the house and stole all the electrical appliances George and all his family had (already) slept. While George and all his family were sleeping, the robbers sneaked in the house and stole all the electrical appliances.
When we use the Past Simple it means that the first action was complited when the second action happend.
When we sat down, the play had (already) started.

Most of the homes that were destroyed by bush fire last summer, were built with woodshake roofs.

"bush fire (subject) destroyed (verb) most of the homes..." - active voice ( main topic =bush fire)

"most of the homes (subject) that were destroyed (verb) by bush fire (doer)..." - passive voice. (main of the homes=main topic).

Resons for using of the passive:
1 The main topic of the sentence. The main topic usually comes at the beginning of the sentence.

An American won the Olympic 100 meter race again.(main topic =an American)
The Olympic 100 meter race was won by an American again. (main topic=the Olympic 100 meter race
If the main topic isn't the doer of the verb, you need to use the passive.

2 The doer of the verb is unknown.
My book has been stolen (we don't know who did this)
3 The doer of the verb is not important in this context
The Eiffel Tower was built in 1889. (we are interested in when it was built, not who built it)
4 it is obvious who the doer is without saying.
Thousand of football fans were arrested (it is obvious that the police arrested them)
5 The doer of the verb is people in general.
English is spoken in many countries around the world.(no need to say by people).

So I guess, yours sentences have different meanings.
_________________
Slow but sure.

[Lexiconkitty]

thanks for your corrections. I meant bungled or destroyed all electrical appliances.

I wanted to know which of the three options best fits in the question posted. The underlined part is the first option while the other two are alternatives to be selected; only one choice fits and is thus the best response.

Thanks Geo777 for taking your time.

[Geo777]

It's complicated to me. It depends on what do we want to emphasize.

(2) Last summer, bush fires destroyed most of the homes that were...
It seems to me that the sentence means that almost all of the homes built with woodshake roofs were destroyed.
But on the other hand
(3) Most of the homes that were destroyed in last summer’s bush fires had been...
The sentence means that of the all homes destroyed most of them were built (before the fire) with woodshake roofs.

I don't know for sure.

If the first option of the sentence begins with "Most of the homes that were destroyed in last summer’s bush fires...", I choose " had been built..."
_________________
Slow but sure.

[Lexiconkitty]

Hi Geo777,
lets keep semantics aside; is it grammatically correct to say:

(3) Most of the homes that were destroyed in last summer’s bush fires had been built with woodshake roofs.

"had been built with woodshake roofs," I thought is a process that was started and completed sometime in the past. Of course, the house must have been built with something for it to be in existence - that's a fact that cannot be changed.

Take a look at this: Most of the homes that were destroyed in last summer's bush fires had been torched with acid rain; or

Most of of the homes that were destroyed in last summer's bush fires had been marked for demolition by the authority.

My contention in the original sentence is akin to:
Most of the websites that won the Nobel prize for best iLearning sites had been designed with Linux open source... Is this sentence correct in its application of the past perfect tense?

[Geo777]

[Lexiconkitty]

Linux is a computer operating system usually with a free license for users
to modify the source code (original script written by the owner).

Your last example looks good to me.
My emphasis is on verbs of a permanence type: birth, build, designed / created, etc.
someone had been born; something had been built / created before something else took place. Not very comfortable with such.

It's like saying:
"the boy that was arrested had been born by a spanish woman"
The fact that the boy was born by a spanish woman happened once and no more. The boy cannot be born twice.

Another one: "The furniture that was destroyed had been fabricated with mahogany"
The furniture couldn't have been fabricated twice. Hope you get my point?

To say before an action impacted on a subject, it had been created or made of xyz
sounds somewhat awkward to me. Its different from two regular verbs that impacted
on a subject, but of course, at separate times in the past. No problem with those.

Above all, I have to thank you Gee777 for your patience with me.

[Geo777]

Glad to be of service to you.
_________________
Slow but sure.