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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June


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The usage of 'if at all' | want more expand
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #1 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:12 am   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

Hello Alan, Mister Micawber, Beeesneees, Mordant, Esl_Expert and other native English speakers,

-----------------------------------
http://tinyurl.com/23lbrcm
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June.
-----------------------------------

I'm wondering if has is unnecessary.
This news article was published yesterday [11:45PM BST 16 Jul 2010].
Tofu
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #2 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:17 am   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

The use of the present perfect here tends to show the immediacy of the 'melting'. The traditional use would be past simple because we are talking about something in the past. In a way it's like using the present simple in a narrative about the past where the reader/listener is made more aware of the action.

Alan
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #3 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:19 am   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

It's a vague sentence. The way I read it, it depends on whether it means that this June Arctic sea ice has reached its thinnest state ever (in which case 'has' is incorrect) or whether it means that Arctic sea ice has reached its thinnest state compared to previous June months since records began (in which case it is necessary).
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #4 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:48 am   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

I felt the same way, Bev.
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #5 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:32 am   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

Thank you, Alan, B and Mordant.

Beeesneees wrote:
It's a vague sentence. The way I read it, it depends on whether it means that this June Arctic sea ice has reached its thinnest state ever (in which case 'has' is incorrect) or whether it means that Arctic sea ice has reached its thinnest state compared to previous June months since records began (in which case it is necessary).


What does previous June months mean?
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #6 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:41 am   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

All Junes before this one.
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #7 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:27 am   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

Thank you, Mordant.

------------------------------
Northern Thailand is struggling through the worst drought in 20 years, while Israel is in the middle of the longest and most severe drought since 1920s.

In Britain, this year has been the driest since 1929.

Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June.
------------------------------

Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June.
I suppose that the writer wants the reader to take this sentence as "Also, Arctic sea ice melted to its thinnest state in recorded history last month." What do you think?
Tofu
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #8 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:32 am   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

I think you're right, in which case the present perfect is wrong. That was a poor way to word that sentence, no matter the intent.
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #9 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:59 am   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

Thank you, Mordant.
Tofu
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Joined: 28 May 2010
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #10 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:37 pm   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

Feeling a bit curious, I looked this up. This satisfies the present perfect criterion of recently ended action.

http://www.petroleumnews.com/pntruncate/887699242.shtml

Here's how I'd revise it:

Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to its lowest June level in recorded history.

The current sentence is ambiguous. It could mean the ice melted to its lowest levels for this June. Of course, it also gives the appearance of a potential error.
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #11 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 15:21 pm   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

I really, honestly do not see what the problem is.

Quote:
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
.

What this means to me is that the sea has melted to its thinnest level and this has happened just recently, in June. I tried to explain that above:

Quote:
The use of the present perfect here tends to show the immediacy of the 'melting'. The traditional use would be past simple because we are talking about something in the past. In a way it's like using the present simple in a narrative about the past where the reader/listener is made more aware of the action.


What is the problem?

Alan
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #12 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 15:38 pm   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June.

This could be:

Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest state it has seen during this June so far. (Not = "During this June, Artic sea ice ...")
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest June level of any year ever recorded. - Correct
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest state it has ever seen, and that happened during this June.

That made me want to know what the sentence actually meant. I didn't read anything apart from the original sentence the first time, so I wondered what it actually meant.

That article makes it clear, though, that this isn't the lowest level it has reached. The sentence means this is the lowest June recording ever.
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #13 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 16:31 pm   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

Phew!!
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #14 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 23:22 pm   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

Mordant wrote:
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest state it has seen during this June so far. (Not = "During this June, Artic sea ice ...")
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest June level of any year ever recorded. - Correct
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest state it has ever seen, and that happened during this June.


Mordant,
I suppose that "it has ever been seen" is correct.
Tofu
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Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June #15 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 23:29 pm   Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June
 

No, Tofu. In order to work grammatically, it would at least have to be "thinnest state that has ever been seen."

But it's fine as is. "To see" means "to experience" here.
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