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#2 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:17 am Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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The use of the present perfect here tends to show the immediacy of the 'melting'. The traditional use would be past simple because we are talking about something in the past. In a way it's like using the present simple in a narrative about the past where the reader/listener is made more aware of the action.
Alan _________________ English as a Second Language You can read my ESL story Present Simple |
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Alan Co-founder

Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Posts: 14461 Location: UK
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#3 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:19 am Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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It's a vague sentence. The way I read it, it depends on whether it means that this June Arctic sea ice has reached its thinnest state ever (in which case 'has' is incorrect) or whether it means that Arctic sea ice has reached its thinnest state compared to previous June months since records began (in which case it is necessary). _________________ Cheers m' dears! |
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Beeesneees Language Coach

Joined: 08 Apr 2010 Posts: 20433 Location: UK, born and bred
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#4 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:48 am Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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| I felt the same way, Bev. |
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Mordant Language Coach
Joined: 12 May 2010 Posts: 1964 Location: United States
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#5 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:32 am Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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Thank you, Alan, B and Mordant.
| Beeesneees wrote: |
| It's a vague sentence. The way I read it, it depends on whether it means that this June Arctic sea ice has reached its thinnest state ever (in which case 'has' is incorrect) or whether it means that Arctic sea ice has reached its thinnest state compared to previous June months since records began (in which case it is necessary). |
What does previous June months mean? |
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Tofu I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 28 May 2010 Posts: 1412 Location: Swept away by the Mar, 11 tsunami
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#6 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:41 am Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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| All Junes before this one. |
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Mordant Language Coach
Joined: 12 May 2010 Posts: 1964 Location: United States
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#7 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:27 am Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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Thank you, Mordant.
------------------------------ Northern Thailand is struggling through the worst drought in 20 years, while Israel is in the middle of the longest and most severe drought since 1920s.
In Britain, this year has been the driest since 1929.
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June. ------------------------------
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June. I suppose that the writer wants the reader to take this sentence as "Also, Arctic sea ice melted to its thinnest state in recorded history last month." What do you think? |
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Tofu I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 28 May 2010 Posts: 1412 Location: Swept away by the Mar, 11 tsunami
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#8 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:32 am Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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| I think you're right, in which case the present perfect is wrong. That was a poor way to word that sentence, no matter the intent. |
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Mordant Language Coach
Joined: 12 May 2010 Posts: 1964 Location: United States
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#9 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:59 am Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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| Thank you, Mordant. |
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Tofu I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 28 May 2010 Posts: 1412 Location: Swept away by the Mar, 11 tsunami
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#10 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:37 pm Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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Feeling a bit curious, I looked this up. This satisfies the present perfect criterion of recently ended action.
http://www.petroleumnews.com/pntruncate/887699242.shtml
Here's how I'd revise it:
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to its lowest June level in recorded history.
The current sentence is ambiguous. It could mean the ice melted to its lowest levels for this June. Of course, it also gives the appearance of a potential error. |
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Mordant Language Coach
Joined: 12 May 2010 Posts: 1964 Location: United States
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#11 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 15:21 pm Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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I really, honestly do not see what the problem is.
| Quote: |
| Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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What this means to me is that the sea has melted to its thinnest level and this has happened just recently, in June. I tried to explain that above:
| Quote: |
| The use of the present perfect here tends to show the immediacy of the 'melting'. The traditional use would be past simple because we are talking about something in the past. In a way it's like using the present simple in a narrative about the past where the reader/listener is made more aware of the action. |
What is the problem?
Alan _________________ English as a Foreign Language You can read my EFL story Progressive Forms |
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Alan Co-founder

Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Posts: 14461 Location: UK
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#12 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 15:38 pm Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June.
This could be:
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest state it has seen during this June so far. (Not = "During this June, Artic sea ice ...") Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest June level of any year ever recorded. - Correct Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest state it has ever seen, and that happened during this June.
That made me want to know what the sentence actually meant. I didn't read anything apart from the original sentence the first time, so I wondered what it actually meant.
That article makes it clear, though, that this isn't the lowest level it has reached. The sentence means this is the lowest June recording ever. |
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Mordant Language Coach
Joined: 12 May 2010 Posts: 1964 Location: United States
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#13 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 16:31 pm Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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Phew!! _________________ English as a Second Language You can read my ESL story Passive Voice |
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Alan Co-founder

Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Posts: 14461 Location: UK
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#14 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 23:22 pm Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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| Mordant wrote: |
Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest state it has seen during this June so far. (Not = "During this June, Artic sea ice ...") Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest June level of any year ever recorded. - Correct Also, Arctic sea ice has melted to the thinnest state it has ever seen, and that happened during this June.
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Mordant, I suppose that "it has ever been seen" is correct. |
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Tofu I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 28 May 2010 Posts: 1412 Location: Swept away by the Mar, 11 tsunami
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#15 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 23:29 pm Arctic sea ice has melted to its thinnest state in June |
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No, Tofu. In order to work grammatically, it would at least have to be "thinnest state that has ever been seen."
But it's fine as is. "To see" means "to experience" here. |
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Mordant Language Coach
Joined: 12 May 2010 Posts: 1964 Location: United States
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| The usage of 'if at all' | want more expand |