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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of



 
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #1 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:26 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of — Ezra Pound.

"fails to get hold of", 'hold of' of what? Is it: There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of (by others)?

I would have replaced that "which" with 'whose'. Would it be okay? I didn't see any definition of 'which' which says 'which' is equivalent to 'whose'.

Context:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22which+mere+criticism+of+books%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1
Jackson6612
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #2 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:34 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

fails to get hold of = fails to adequately examine/explain/elucidate/describe.

'Which' = 'that', so no 'whose'.
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #3 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:53 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

Hi

Quote:
'Which' = 'that', so no 'whose'.


there was a strata of Paris (=selective individuals in Paris)

"mere criticism of books", criticism done by who? By those selective individuals of Paris. So, don't you think 'whose' would better signify the relationship? Please guide me.
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #4 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:07 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

'Strata of Paris' is the object of the criticism (or its failure, actually).
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #5 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:32 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

Mr. Micawber, I think the problem lies in the way how I read this sentence:
There was a strata of Paris - which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of.

It seems like it should be read as:
There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of - books fails to get hold of.

"-" stands for a short pause.

Is it so? Please let me know.
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #6 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:42 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

No, it is not so; it is as I said (though your link does not work to the original text).
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #7 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:03 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

I have edited the link to the original. Choose the first result.

Yes, it is as you have said. That's lead me to figure out where I was going wrong with the sentence.

Is the following sentence correct? Please let me know.
There were a few individuals of which criticism John failed to put forth successfully.
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #8 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:10 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

Ah-- now you should choose 'whose/whom' this way:

There were a few individuals whose criticism John failed to put forth successfully.-- if John is repeating the criticisms the individuals uttered.

There were a few individuals criticism of whom John failed to put forth successfully. -- if John is trying to criticize the individuals.
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #9 (permalink) Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:45 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

Hi Mr Micawber

I intended the second:
There were a few individuals criticism of whom John failed to put forth successfully.

Now compare it with the one the cause of all headache:
There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of.

To me, "John" and "books" occupy the same position in relation to the overall meaning of the sentence.

Please guide me on this.

"a few individuals" is the object of criticism and "John" is doing the criticism.

"a strata of Paris" is the target of criticism and "books" is performing it.

Best wishes
Jack
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #10 (permalink) Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:48 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

I stand on my original assessment.
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #11 (permalink) Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:55 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

Actually it's your assessment which enabled me to grasp the true meaning, which I'm afraid isn't that much 'true'.

I don't know how my take differs from yours. I'm only trying to confirm if I'm on the right path. Please let me know.
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There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of #12 (permalink) Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:06 am   There was a strata of Paris which mere criticism of books fails to get hold of
 

Mr Micawber, I'm awaiting your reply. Please let me know what you have to say.
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