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 #2 (permalink) Thu Jan 19, 2006 23:03 pm Recommend/suggest |
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Hi Conchita,
They are not all they seem, these two!
Let me try and not be obscure.
Suggest can take a direct object:
She suggested Tuesday as a day to meet.
It can take another clause
She suggested we meet/met on Tuesday (technically this is a subjunctiove but it only shows in the 3rd person singular)
She suggested he met her/he meet her on Tuesday
It can also take a gerund.
She suggested meeting on Tuesday
Recommend can also take a direct object:
They recommended english-test
It can also take a dependent clause
They recommend we look at english-test (subjunctive again)
It can also take a gerund
They recommended looking at english-test
The difference is that whereas suggest must take a gerund form of the verb (except when you use the rather heavy subjunctive construction), recommend can be followed by either gerund or infinitive: recommend me to go/recommend going.
Can I recommend an excellent little and inexpensive grammar book: A Practical English Grammar by A J Thomson and A V Martinet published by Oxford University Press originally in 1960 and constantly reprinted. A friend of mine once met these 'dear little old ladies' as he called them - all three of whom are no longer with us. But it appeals to me the picture of these little Miss Marples puzzling over grammar.
Alan
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| #3 (permalink) Fri Jan 20, 2006 13:17 pm Recommend with or without 'to' |
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Hello Alan,
Thank you for your reply, which turned out to be a full lesson really. What I liked best was your personal touch at the end and I couldn’t help smiling at the funny picture!
Grammar books, however good they may be, are impersonal and will never replace a teacher ‘in the flesh’ (at least I hope so – who knows if teachers will still be needed in a remote future?).
Incidentally, I have the third (1980) edition of that book. It is indeed quite handy and concise. Funnily enough, I had forgotten all about it and have just fished it out from a pile of old workbooks. |
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Conchita
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| #4 (permalink) Fri Jan 20, 2006 14:56 pm Recommend with or without 'to' |
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Dear old friends,
Nice to speak to you again. Actually, I am always here but only for reading questions and comments. I cannot image any other useful web site for English learners other than this.
By the way, a good suggestion for Alan: put forward your web site's candidacy for prize nomination of best Internet web sites. You can surely win one some day in the future. Well, let me put this sentence as a kind of reply to Conchita's question: I suggest that you put forward his web site's candidacy for prize nomination of best Internet sites.
A very good question by Conchita. When I come across with a sentence in which I have to use "recommend" or "suggest" I use "that" to make things easier. This is what my editors told me to do. But in order to enrich my English I will use Alan's comments in the future.
Zahir
PS.: Conchita, I am writing another long reply to your message, whcih I am planning to send within a day or two. It is really my pleasure to have you as a email pal. (Alan, please, do not hesitate to comment on my mistakes.)
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Ahmadov
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| #5 (permalink) Wed May 23, 2007 13:25 pm Recommend/suggest |
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| Alan wrote: |
The difference is that whereas suggest must take a gerund form of the verb (except when you use the rather heavy ??? subjunctive construction), recommend can be followed by either gerund or infinitive or the subjunctive!!!: recommend me to go/recommend going/recommend I go.
Can I recommend an excellent little and inexpensive grammar book: A Practical English Grammar by A J Thomson and A V Martinet published by Oxford University Press originally in 1960 and constantly reprinted. A friend of mine once met these 'dear little old ladies' as he called them - all three of whom are no longer with us. But it appeals to me the picture of these little Miss Marples puzzling over grammar.
Alan |
"The doctor recommended him to stay in bed" sounds distinctly odd (i.e. it sounds just plain wrong!) to my American ears, and the use of the subjunctive does not sound at all "heavy" in a sentence such as "The doctor recommended he stay in bed". In fact, the use of the subjunctive in such a sentence would be very common in American English. Unfortunately, Alan's opinion seems to be that what is correct and natural in BE must also be correct and natural in AmE. I recommend that Alan spend (!) some time in the US. Perhaps that will help him finally understand that other forms of English are not identical to British English and that differences do exist.
If I'm not mistaken, the authors of the grammar book recommended above were British, which apparently explains their endorsement of a sentence such as "The doctor recommended him to stay in bed". To American ears, that sentence sounds as though the doctor picked 'him' out from a group of candidates as the winner of some sort of prize -- the prize of being the one allowed to stay in bed.  |
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Yankee
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| #6 (permalink) Wed May 23, 2007 13:49 pm Recommend with or without 'to' |
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Oh dear! I'm in the doghouse again! And all because of something I wrote some 18 months ago. If I have to defend myself, I'd like to point out that I have never claimed /stated/ hinted at or maintained what is insinuated here:
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| Unfortunately, Alan's opinion seems to be that what is correct and natural in BE must also be correct and natural in AmE. |
That I'm afraid is pure fancy! On the contrary I have on several occasions commented on the unique American English turn of phrase in contrast to a British English turn of phrase and revelled in it. What surprises me is the authoritative way in which Amy claims to speak for America. Surely there must be a host of variations in language constructions in such a vast country if there are (and there are) innumerable variations in the small island on which I live and have my being. The bee in the bonnet needs to be released, Amy.
Alan
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| #7 (permalink) Wed May 23, 2007 14:04 pm Recommend with or without 'to' |
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| You see, you've rejected the fact that there is a difference once again. Insulting me will not change the fact that a difference in usage exists, Alan. |
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Yankee
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| #8 (permalink) Wed May 23, 2007 14:14 pm Recommend with or without 'to' |
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Well this takes the biscuit! How on earth have I rejected the fact there is a difference in what I wrote above? The pure fantasy to which I refer is your comment:
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| Unfortunately, Alan's opinion seems to be that what is correct and natural in BE must also be correct and natural in AmE. |
And how have I insulted you?
Alan
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| #9 (permalink) Wed May 23, 2007 15:04 pm Recommend with or without 'to' |
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| Alan wrote: |
| What surprises me is the authoritative way in which Amy claims to speak for America. |
What shocks me is that you are surprised that an American English teacher knows American English. I would suggest that I know vastly more than you do about what is and is not standard and common in American English. In fact, I find your knowledge of American English to be extremely limited.
| Alan wrote: |
| Surely there must be a host of variations in language constructions in such a vast country if there are (and there are) innumerable variations in the small island on which I live and have my being. |
My guess is that your original post stated what you consider to be "standard" British English. Why in the world do you now have a problem with my stating what is common in standard American English? That is what is known as a double standard.
As to acknowledging that variations exist in AmE, I have posted things about that in the past. Perhaps your allergy to American English caused you to avoid reading them? Did you fail to notice that I posted something about Southern American English just today? I admit, though, that I usually stick mainly to "standard" American English. My reason for doing so is that students often need to know what will be correct on a test. That is also the reason that I frequently note which standard version of English I'm referring to.
| Alan wrote: |
| The bee in the bonnet needs to be released, Amy. |
I will be happy to release my bee if you will release all of yours. |
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Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
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| #10 (permalink) Wed May 23, 2007 15:28 pm Recommend with or without 'to' |
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Hi Amy,
I find your comments getting more and more ridiculous about what I apparently think and don't think.
The latest wisecrack about my
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| allergy to American English |
is quite absurd. Your comment earlier
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| Unfortunately, Alan's opinion seems to be that what is correct and natural in BE must also be correct and natural in AmE. |
is as I said without foundation. You don't explain the basis for this comment
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| You see, you've rejected the fact that there is a difference once again |
Your comment:
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| My guess is that your original post stated what you consider to be "standard" British English |
is again your guess. I don't have this this hangup on whether it's standard this or standard that I merely answer the question put to the best of my knowledge. Any subscriber sees where I am based and can read my background. They are, one assumes, aware of that and can draw their own conclusions.
Alan
PS At least you admit that you do have a bee in your bonnet (
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| I will be happy to release my bee |
) - so all is not lost
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| #11 (permalink) Wed May 23, 2007 15:39 pm Recommend with or without 'to' |
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| Alan wrote: |
| I find your comments getting more and more ridiculous about what I apparently think and don't think. |
Does that mean it is ridiculous to assume that when you answer a question about grammar it reflects standard English? Surely you don't intentionally tell students to use bad grammar -- grammar constructions that they will lose points on if used in a test?
| Alan wrote: |
| The latest wisecrack about my allergy to American English is quite absurd. |
That wasn't intended as a wisecrack. It is simply my observation. |
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Yankee
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| #12 (permalink) Wed May 23, 2007 15:51 pm Recommend with or without 'to' |
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Good try but wasted effort. You know exactly what I mean. Sarcasm -
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| Surely you don't intentionally tell students to use bad grammar -- grammar constructions that they will lose points on if used in a test? |
is a last resort and with that in mind I shall refrain from it.
Alan
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| #13 (permalink) Wed May 23, 2007 20:55 pm Recommend with or without 'to' |
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| Alan wrote: |
| is a last resort and with that in mind I shall refrain from it. |
My assumption about what you mean here is that you that you yourself will refrain from further sarcasm.
| Alan wrote: |
| What surprises me is the authoritative way in which Amy claims to speak for America. Surely there must be a host of variations in language constructions in such a vast country... |
Sound familiar? Sounds suspiciously like sarcasm, doesn't it? Hmmmm...
| Alan wrote: |
| is again your guess. I don't have this this hangup on whether it's standard this or standard that I merely answer the question put to the best of my knowledge. |
Of course you have a hangup, Alan. You often get all hot and bothered when someone suggests that a usage as you have described it is not a common usage elsewhere. Why the sarcasm about being surprised by "the authoritative way in which Amy claims to speak for America"? (Those were your words.) Why should I not address differences in American English? After all, you certainly can't be expected to do that.
| Alan wrote: |
| You know exactly what I mean. |
Well,now, that's a guess on your part, isn't it. Sometimes I think I know what you mean. Sometimes I have to make assumptions about what you mean. What you are reacting to, however, is not my assumption, but rather my observation.
| Alan wrote: |
| Good try but wasted effort. |
Yup, it's often wasted effort trying to deal with you. And that's one of the main reasons I asked Torsten and Slava to remove me from the moderator list here. It's too often unacceptable to have any opinion that is not identical to yours or that is not something you want to hear. If I state there is a difference in American usage, you too often seem to take it personally or simply want to disagree with me. God only knows why. Today, you resorted to sarcasm, and it's not the first time you've done so. You have insulted me both directly and indirectly in the past and I am quite certain you are not only well aware of your insults, but also do so intentionally. You have even had the outlandish nerve to complain that I have done practically nothing on this forum except repeat what you've already written. So, even if I have the same opinion that you do, there is a real risk that you will see any agreement from me as "just another case of Amy copy-catting what Alan has said. I know that I have provided this forum with plenty of quality input, and for the life of me, I cannot understand how you could possibly ever write that practically everything I've written was taken from you. That comment of yours was not only monumentally arrogant, but also completely untrue. And you must know that.
Maybe you could point out some of the instances on this forum where you have answered a grammar question or a question about an idiomatic expression and made a point of noting that it was British usage only. There probably aren't many, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were not any at all. And that was my point earlier in this thread: You are painfully unaware of the differences and seem to be bent on denying that more than just a couple differences (other than spelling) even exist. |
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Yankee
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| #14 (permalink) Wed May 23, 2007 23:24 pm Recommend with or without 'to' |
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Hi Amy,
I shall just say once more that I have never denied there are differences between American English and British English. This is something you have dreamt up but it has no basis in fact. You can repeat it again and again but it still doesn't make it true. The fact that there are no references in my answers to the fact that this is British usage only doesn't automatically mean that I assume that such a usage is not found in any other variety of English. Posters ask whether such and such is correct or acceptable and I give my opinion. Should I preface each reply with a comment that such a reply is made based on having lived all my life in the UK, having had a certain type of education and that English is my first language? Are people that interested or do they want an opinion, an answer?
Alan
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| #15 (permalink) Thu May 24, 2007 3:30 am Recommend with or without 'to' |
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| "I shall just say once more..."? Nobody in America uses "shall" anymore, do they? |
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 Diverhank
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| Use of Having | How to refuse? |
