adjectives (word order)

[Pooh]

I learned that opinion adjectives come before fact adjectives
but I am not sure about the word order for the same fact adjectives.

Ex. large round table, tall thin girl, long narrow street

Can't we say "round large table, thin tall girl, narrow long street".?
If not, why that is to? Any reasonable explanation or just like
that's the way they are?

[Haihao]

Really good questions, Pooh! If there is anything I can offer to answer your questions, then the following is just for your reference:

1. I'd think the degree of essentiality is involved as a great factor. For example, round is more essential than large for a table because a round table is nearly a truth or absolute fact while a large table could be relative or comparative: a large table, a larger table, an even larger table...; a round table, ?a rounder table, ??the roundest table. Thus, higher-degree adjectives come closer to the noun.
2. If the degrees are substantially equal, then in theory the order is selective but largely dependent on syllable numbers: the longest word comes last such as "a long narrow street". An example of noun arrangement is the famous "ladies and gentlemen".
3. Another rule is the degree of impression or impact or importance: the first-coming adjectve has a first-rate impression and importance: a tall girl gives a greater impact than a thin girl.
4. If you arrange it in a coordinate manner, then "a round, large table", "a thin, tall girl", and "a narrow, long street" would be alright because the comma neutralizes or assimilates the different degrees or differences.

[Beeesneees]

Hi Pooh:
It isn't generally a problem, because you wouldn't use two adjectives of the same form to describe something.

You haven't done so in your examples either:
large, round table - size then shape.
tall thin girl - size then shape. ('thin' can be considered to be the shape she is!)
long narrow street - size then shape (again 'narrow' can be considered to relate to the shape of the street).
_________________
Cheers m' dears!

[Haihao]

I am afraid the problem is: why size then shape (then color)? The "size then shape" theory is easy and may go over big with elementary schools, though broader and better than a "large round X" formula, but it still doesn't give any explanations in essence, which our questioner asked for. Also, what if the question goes beyond "size then shape" such as "an old beautiful/beautiful old round table", "good old days"..., you name it?

[Pooh]

Thank you guys for the comments to my question.

>Haihao

I think "fact" is more important than "opinion", right?
So in English, fact adjective should be put closer to the noun because of that reason. That's what I thought.
If so, in your explanation #3, that first coming adjective is more important than the second sounds a bit contradictory to me.

Other explanations are very impressive!! Thanks! :)

[Pooh]

By the way, my text book also says;

1. an unusual gold ring
2. a nice new sweater
3. a new green sweater
4. a beautiful old house
5. black leather gloves
6. an old American movie
7. a long thin face
8. big black clouds
9. a lovely yellow dress
10. a long wide avenue
11. a litle old red car
12. a charming little old country inn
13. beautiful long black hair
14. an interesting old Japanese painting
15. an enormous red and yellow umbrella / an enoumouse yellow and red umbrella

[Haihao]

Hi Pooh,

I generally and impressively agree to your comment on the "fact adjective". As for the issue of importance of adjectives, I'd think it depends largely on human nature but little on fact. For example, adjectives such as big, tall, rich, etc, are always more impressive than small, low, poor, etc., but they are not necessarily relevant to fact. That is, a fact can be less impressive or "cold" while a description could be very impressive and "warm". Another example is "you and I" but not "I and you" to show courtesy or importance by placing "you" at first regardless of the fact that everyone always thinks of himself/herself most important! :)

Haihao

P.S. Your list is alright.

[Pooh]

I see, depends on human nature. Thanks! :)

Can I ask you one more thing?
Why does numeral always come first?

Ex. many green apples, NOT green many apples

[Haihao]

Sure! I'd think because numerals are generally least close to the essential quality denoted by a noun, and thus possible to be placed even before "a/an" such as "many a man". On the other hand, colors usually come last.

[Pooh]

Great!! :)