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 Sat Mar 04, 2006 23:46 pm Prepositions |
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You surely did hear "on Christmas" in the US. When I hear "at Christmas", it sounds to me more as if the speaker is talking about a deadline and not about the holiday. When I hear "on Christmas", it sounds to me like it's during the day people are celebrating. A UK resident may hear them differently.
We also say "on the weekend". |
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Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:33 am Merry No?l/Joyeux Christmas! |
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A famous stereotype about Americans is that they live to work (in Spain we definitely work to live! – actually, the two peoples are said to be worlds apart in mentality). So I’m not surprised you say ‘on Christmas’, because you probably mean ‘on Christmas Eve/Christmas Day’ only.
‘At Christmas’, to me, implies the whole season, that is, ‘at Christmas time’ (from December 24th to January 6th). The Spanish word for it can even be used in the plural: Navidades (Christmases). That says it all, doesn’t it? |
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Conchita
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| Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:21 am Merry No?l/Joyeux Christmas! |
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| Conchita wrote: | | A famous stereotype about Americans is that they live to work (in Spain we definitely work to live! – actually, the two peoples are said to be worlds apart in mentality). |
I hate that stereotype. A famous stereotype of Mediterranean people (and the French) is that they are not productive, kind of lazy and go on strike a lot. This stereotype of Americans assumes that work cannot be enjoyable, and Americans can't conceive of a society where people get so little fulfillment from their work that they put everything off until the last minute, or never do it.
My former dentist is an American of Italian descent, and you should hear him complain about visits from his cousins from Italy: "They get up and eat breakfast until 9 o'clock. When you finally get them out to see something, it's about 11 o'clock, and they're already starting to get hungry again. So you take them to lunch, and that lasts about two hours, and by the time they get up from the table, most of the day is shot!" And he's talking about how his cousins spend their recreation time, not work time!
| Quote: | | So I’m not surprised you say ‘on Christmas’, because you probably mean ‘on Christmas Eve/Christmas Day’ only. |
When I hear "on Christmas", I think of the duration of the Christmas holiday, however long that happens to be where someone lives. When I hear "at Christmas", it sounds to me like a deadline. The bell rings, and whataya know, you're at Christmas. I can also hear "at Christmas" as meaning "during the Christmas season".
| Quote: | | ‘At Christmas’, to me, implies the whole season, that is, ‘at Christmas time’ (from December 24th to January 6th). The Spanish word for it can even be used in the plural: Navidades (Christmases). That says it all, doesn’t it? |
That is because the Catholic church calendar has the Christmas season lasting approximately that long. In some countries it lasts longer. At the Polish parishes in my hometown, they traditionally take the Christmas decorations down sometime in early February, and the Germans here take the decorations down a week earlier to prove they're not Polish. But I can't believe that the Spanish don't go to work between December 24 and January 6. They must. How many times was Jesus born, after all! |
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Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Sun Mar 05, 2006 20:35 pm An ocean apart |
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Our little stereotype battle is fun, Jamie, but it just goes to show how we are on the defensive about things that have to do with our country, customs, faith, etc. Or is it a need to prove that we are different (meaning better, when it concerns ourselves)? Your funny anecdote about the Polish and Germans is a good example of it!
I said that our two continents are more than an ocean apart or something in those lines. Well, your former dentist’s Italian family show my point exactly. In fact, this attitude is characteristic of Mediterranean cultures, who are also more family-minded, generally. Perhaps this is why mealtimes are special occasions and are usually enjoyed to the full (although, with our increasingly stressful lives, this is now debatable!).
The traditional Spanish lunch break lasts from 1.30/2 pm to 4.30/5 pm. This applies to shops, mainly (except the big department stores which don’t close at noon). Office hours are different, but, unless workers do an 8 to 3 intensive shift, they still have from one to two hours break for a compulsory full meal (el almuerzo/la comida), regardless of the fact that the evening meal (almost never before 9 or 10 pm) will be another complete and often heavy dinner (la cena) – eating light is not very Spanish, as you can see, except maybe at breakfast (el desayuno), which is the opposite of what nutritionists advise!
It does sound as if we spend more time eating than working  , however, with a 40 hour week, we still work two more hours than the EC average! Most Spaniards take a full calendar month holiday (or 22 workdays) in summer, which is what they are entitled to. Some prefer to split their holidays or to leave a few days for another time of the year, if the company allows it. Apart from that, we have 15 official bank holidays, three of which are December 25th, January 1st and January 6th (we do have to work in between  ).
A far cry from your total vacation days per year, isn't it? |
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Conchita
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Location: Madrid, Spain
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| Mon Mar 06, 2006 13:55 pm An ocean apart |
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| Conchita wrote: | | Most Spaniards take a full calendar month holiday (or 22 workdays) in summer, which is what they are entitled to. |
This has one noticeable effect on the countries where this long vacation is common. Everything crazy and objectionable that politicians or bureaucrats want to do happens in August, because everyone is away on vacation and won't be able to do anything about it right away. If a mid-level official decides to change the official spelling rules, he does it in August, because the people above him are on vacation. The Berlin Wall was erected during August, while people were away on vacation.
| Quote: | Some prefer to split their holidays or to leave a few days for another time of the year, if the company allows it. Apart from that, we have 15 official bank holidays, three of which are December 25th, January 1st and January 6th (we do have to work in between ).
A far cry from your total vacation days per year, isn't it? |
It depends on where the American works and how long he's worked for the same company. After about three years at one company, I'd reached three weeks of vacation. Before my father retired, he had five weeks a year. It depends on the company, how long you have worked there, and how well you've worked. Personally, I haven't had any official vacation for about five years, because I have worked at various colleges at the same time, and their vacation weeks conflict. This means I get free time, but I can't go anywhere.
One of the biggest problems in the EU, from what I can see, is that the governments maintain the archaic notion that every working person takes a job away from some other person. In some countries they therefore restrict the amount that willing people can work. They don't understand that the people with jobs actually create more jobs for more people. My neighbor's cousin in Europe was forced to retire in his 50s, and even though he's young enough, competent enough, and eager to work, the government will punish him with outrageous taxes if he tries. He is just supposed to get old and die, I guess. The government doesn't realize that if he starts a consulting business, for example, he'll probably wind up having to hire a secretary and maybe even other staff members, and create more jobs that didn't exist before.
The result of all this is that, in some European countries, only 33% of the workers between 50 and 65 are working. These countries are wasting a huge percentage of their most experienced, most knowledgeable people. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:55 am Stereotypes about Americans |
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Hi Conchita and Jamie (K),
I come from a Balkan European country, Bulgaria, but as my Dutch family always tell me I was born in the wrong country. Don't get me wrong, I love Bulgaria too much to leave it but there are certainly some things in the "system" which I totally disagree with.
On the one hand long holidays are not a bad thing. Conchita, I agree with you that in a way the closer to the Mediterranean you are, the longer holidays you have. I work as a teacher in English at a Maths school and my annual holiday is about 60 working days. Sounds great, doesn't it? But if you ask people working in the so called private sector, they will tell you that most of the time they can hardly take a week or ten days. So, it depends on what exactly your job is.
On the other hand, Jamie (K), you're absolutely right. It IS sad that you have to stop working when you are about 55, especially when you do some kind of intellectual work. In my opinion this is the time when you are experienced enough and sharing your experience can only be useful. Isn't it funny that all our life every step we make is with the purpose of gaining experience and finally when you DO have it, you have to lock it up at home just because "the system" thinks you're old. Which is more, this same "system" destines you to poverty because it neither gives you the chance to work and make a good living nor gives you a good retirement pension.
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Daniela
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| Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:48 am Prepositions |
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| Daniela wrote: | | On the other hand, Jamie (K), you're absolutely right. It IS sad that you have to stop working when you are about 55, especially when you do some kind of intellectual work. In my opinion this is the time when you are experienced enough and sharing your experience can only be useful. |
The thing I've noticed is that when intelligent workers have a couple of decades under their belts, they have so much knowledge that is so well integrated that younger people or people outside their professions almost think they're clairvoyant.
My brother-in-law has had a long career as a police detective, and when he sees a weeping woman on the news pleading, "Please help me find my children!" he may tell us from looking at her face and body language that she murdered them and where the bodies are. A couple weeks later, the news will report the outcome of the investigation, and his prediction will have been true, in every detail!
I worked at a communications company with a print producer who was 74 years old. This man not only got the same amount of work done as the younger people did, but he appeared to be relaxing most of the day, while the younger ones ran around like frantic chickens. He could also look at a situation and tell you in every detail how it would play out over the next few weeks.
| Quote: | | Isn't it funny that all our life every step we make is with the purpose of gaining experience and finally when you DO have it, you have to lock it up at home just because "the system" thinks you're old. Which is more, this same "system" destines you to poverty because it neither gives you the chance to work and make a good living nor gives you a good retiement pension. |
Again, this is due to the idea that employment is a zero-sum game and that everybody who works takes a job away from someone else. This is simply not true in capitalism.
The main thing that bothered me about working in Eastern Europe is that so many needless restrictions are placed on people who are trying to start their own business. You need a permit, and to get the permit you need show diplomas, turn in police reports (if they exist), wait and wait for a document that says you don't owe any taxes, and pay large fees. And just as bad, you have to be 18 to get the permit anyway. A lot of businesses never get started because of this, and other business is driven underground, so the government never benefits from the taxes. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4337
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Mon Mar 13, 2006 18:23 pm Salud/cheers! |
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| Quote: | | The traditional Spanish lunch break lasts from 1.30/2 pm to 4.30/5 pm. |
This long lunchbreak is not totally unproductive, though. Many businesspeople will tell you that some of the most important deals are made over a copious and liberally washed down meal! |
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Conchita
Language Coach
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2704
Location: Madrid, Spain
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| Mon Mar 13, 2006 20:05 pm Salud/cheers! |
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| Conchita wrote: | | Quote: | | The traditional Spanish lunch break lasts from 1.30/2 pm to 4.30/5 pm. |
This long lunchbreak is not totally unproductive, though. Many businesspeople will tell you that some of the most important deals are made over a copious and liberally washed down meal! |
I suppose machinists also do their best work while sitting at the lunch table. This like Americans who claim that their most productive time is on the golf course. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Tue Mar 14, 2006 0:55 am Stereotypes about Americans |
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Stereotypes are certainly the product of narrow-minded folks whose cross-cultural knowledge & scope don't exceed their nostrils... What do you ALL think of the stereotypes about Muslims? They're in fashion nowadays, aren't they?
But who knows enough about Islam & Muslims?
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Ajanah
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| Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:47 am Stereotypes about Americans |
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Don't get stereotypes and generalizations confused. Stereotypes are usually bad, but people have to make generalizations in order to function in life.
I can predict with about 75% accuracy what certain students in my classes are going to do, and how they are going to react in various situations, based on my experience with other people of their nationalities and on some other factors, such as what neighborhood they have chosen to live in, etc. These are generalizations I've reached based on experience. Now if I said that ALL people of those nationalities behaved and reacted the same way, then I would be stereotyping, and that would be inaccurate.
One day I saw a young woman who was lost in one of the buildings of a college where I sometimes work. I walked up to her and asked her in Russian what she was looking for. She was astonished, and she didn't understand how I knew she was Russian. I had guessed based on her hair, clothes, makeup and physical movements.
So, generalizations can have some validity. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4337
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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