| Writing a CV or r?sum? | I'm really disappointed...:(( |
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 Tue May 16, 2006 2:17 am Immigrants or the less fortunate slices of society |
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| Torsten wrote: | | Jamie, what if the majority of the population are more or less immigrants? What do you think makes people 'behave nastily toward the local population' and how many of the 'immigrants' show this behaviour (however you define it)? |
Are you talking about a society where most people's ANCESTORS were immigrants, or one where the majority of the local population really are immigrants?
How many of the immigrants show this behavior depends on where you find them. In the areas where people have clustered together very densely, you find a lot of it. In places where the immigrants live among the rest of the population, it's not as pronounced. I teach classes in what is called the largest Arabic city outside the Middle East, and there I constantly have to worry about what kind of trouble might start in the class. On the other end of the metropolis, I teach people of the same nationalities, religions and cultures without any problem at all. They live in the same neighborhoods among people of every ethnicity, or among native-born Americans, and they like it here.
| Torsten wrote: | | So why are those people then giving up everything they had at home to leave for a country where a lot of people think like you? |
Well, they do tell me this, because, contrary to the impression you now have of me, they consider me more tolerant and understanding of immigrants than most other people are.
Some of them come because the rest of their family have come. You'll get a more adventurous, risk-taking family member here who then brings other family members here later. The relatives who come later may not like it as much or be as interested in being American as the first relatives who came.
Many of the younger ones come because they can get something here that they can't get in their own countries. Some are very intelligent people who were not allowed to go to university in their own countries, but in the US they can. Some of them can't find decent work in their countries, so they come here for that.
There are also people who come here, join their families, hate the US, but stay here long enough to get US citizenship, just so that they won't have to apply for a visa every time whey want to visit their families.
There are still others who have been treated horribly in their own countries, and they come here because they don't have to worry about outrageous discrimination or genocide. They come here for more freedom, but they don't like the society that allows them that freedom.
Then there is one of the most common reasons: They can make more money here.
| Torsten wrote: | | Jamie (K) wrote: | | I can see this in my own classes and on the street around me. In my area the most insular people are usually Poles and Arabs. |
Jamie, what about the rest of immigrants - the Russians, Ukrainians, Italians you name it - are they 'insular people' too? Are their kids and grand kinds insular too? How many Americans of Polish descent do still speak Polish and regards themselves as Poles who don't want to be part of the US? |
In my area, Russians, Ukrainians, Italians, etc., are not insular. Those of their kids who are born here are not immigrants, so they are not part of this discussion. (I do, however, know Middle Eastern families who will not let their American children assimilate to American society, travel or even choose their own spouses.)
The Poles are a little special here. Probably the majority of those who were born here -- and are therefore not immigrants -- are part of the rest of the population. However, there is a large, visible minority of them who wave their "Polish" nationality around, even if they can't speak Polish and don't even know that much about Poland. They hang out in their Polish neighborhoods, put Polish eagle stickers on their cars, hold all kinds of festivals that don't exist in Poland, hold polka masses at church (I am not joking about that!), and find various ways to snub people whom they don't perceive as Polish. Interestingly enough, real Polish people don't usually mix with them.
Even though almost all of the Irish have become just part of the ordinary American population, there is a visible minority of third- and fourth-generation Irish-Americans who behave much the way these "Poles" do. In my area, I don't notice other groups doing this. Certainly the third-generation Hungarians, Lebanese, Armenians, Germans, etc., don't act like this.
| Torsten wrote: | | Jamie (K) wrote: | | Many of the Poles just generally believe that they, their culture, their language and their society are superior, and that they have nothing to gain by having American friends or living near Americans. |
Is this kind of thinking and behaviour typical for Poles only? Maybe there is a small percentage of people in every nation who think like this? |
Yes, of course other groups can do this, but in my area I notice it mainly among the Poles. Germans here, on the other hand -- and there are many of them now -- get into the mainstream of American life rather quickly, as a rule.
Torsten, I sense that you have a much looser definition of immigrants than people in the US do. For us, an immigrant is a person who has immigrated to this country. The term does not apply to a person who was born here, even if his parents were immigrants.
There's a lot to answer because of the responses to my inflammatory post. I'll have to go outside and take a breath now.
DISCLAIMER: No statement made in this post is intended to apply to all members of any group discussed. Any perception of sweeping generalization is in the mind of the reader only, and is not intended by the author of this post. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Tue May 16, 2006 8:54 am Generalizations |
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Well done, Jamie. You've admitted that you do make generalizations.
| Quote: | | I think you make sweeping generalizations about my generalizations. |
I'll stop sweeping if you stop generalizing.
Alan
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| Tue May 16, 2006 9:52 am Do you like immigrants? |
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| Yankee wrote: | Hi Jamie
It's probably true that it's more likely to be me who strikes up a conversation with a stranger here (for example while waiting in a line or in a waiting room), but people usually respond in a friendly way and chatting isn't a problem at all. Of course chatting with somebody requires a common language and it's easiest to chat in your native language.
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Hi Amy!
I have not known many Americans but that ones I had known seem to be evidences for your assumption. For native citizens of the green M?nsterland or Bavaria, for instance, the American way seems to be flippant. If you should go to the Rheinland or Ruhrgebiet I think you would be astonished about their skills of communication at every place. The only problem might be the native language! 
Michael |
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| Tue May 16, 2006 23:16 pm Do you like immigrants? |
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Spencer, in the Czech Republic as late as the mid-1990s, women over 25 were considered old to find husbands. That age has inched up a bit, so that now they can be 26 or 27, but their chances of finding someone after that age are better in Western countries than they are in their own country. I lived there, and I saw numerous women emigrate for that reason. One woman who liked to travel a lot told me her family and friends said her next trip should be her last. When I asked why, she just said, "Because I'm 23 years old." I asked, "So, what?" and her reply was, "Who will take me?!" The idea was that she was approaching 25, and her chances were diminishing. She was not the first or last case I saw. People from a few other countries tell me it's the same where they live.
The most amazing thing to me about this whole thread is that I was the first one who answered your original post, and said I love immigrants, that I'm glad they come, that I think my country needs them, and that if they come legally I'm happy that they do. Later I pointed out that some people who immigrate to another country don't like or want to be part of the society of that country, that some of those people don't care to mix with the local population, and that it's not the fault of the local population. Just for explaining that some immigrants' insularity is their own fault, I'm getting attacked as if I were anti-immigrant, which I've already pointed out I'm not. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Tue May 16, 2006 23:20 pm Generalizations |
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| Alan wrote: | | Well done, Jamie. You've admitted that you do make generalizations. |
Sure, I make generalizations. Everyone makes them. In fact, people have to make them, or they couldn't function. However, there is a difference between a generalization and a sweeping stereotype, and sometimes you pretend you don't know that distinction. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Wed May 17, 2006 0:05 am Immigrants or the less fortunate slices of society |
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Hi Jamie,
you talk now about some special Polish , the Polish who had arrived just after the Second World War .
They never really were intended to emigrate to USA they were forced to do this after Jalta and Poczdam Conferences
They were mostly active antnazi and antcomunist combatants from September Campaign ,Russian Camps & Prisons ,Russian -Germans War ,Monte Cassino, Warsaw Uprising ,Polish Armies on West and East fronts, from after war anticomunist guerilla movement in Poland etc.
They mixed with the previous Polish emigration in USA and given them new shape.
A lot of them with Polish army officers in their family ,with
death friends fallen in combat ,lost ( for example in Katyn) or left in east of Polish country(after war lost for ever for Polish state)
Don't you expect to much from them ?
They still warship their for ever lost pre- war Poland and this awful injustice what happened to them.
General Sikorski head of Polish State during the War has been murdered (?)in the Name of world peace and alliance between West and Communist Russia ,they knew exactly about this and they were unable even to protect the truth ,they were forgotten for 50 years
It is quite normal they still keep tradition on their own way,
and I am quite sure they will carry on also tradition of Kosciuszko and Pulawski what should help them to be understood by others in USA.
I think this is quite low price to pay for USA society.
I know USA good , I have brother in Chicago .
I remember myself the 88th years old Polish Highlander in traditional polish dress who was speaking unique mountain dialect and gave to me his explanation how it was possible
( he never was in Poland ):
"I had said at home in English once
,when I was 6 years old and father had hit me so strong that I feel even today."
USA is different from the rest of the world, here nobody should expect anything from anybody except what law demands.
If they like what they do ,that it is their problem.
It is opposite about fresh Polish emigrants in States, they were (fresh) mostly rejected by old emigration not opposite (too different from pre war relations probably).
I know what you mean with your email and I have to say I agree with you a lot.
The truth is only the interesting thing ,the rest is just background.
regards
Jan |
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Jan
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| Wed May 17, 2006 4:00 am Do you like immigrants? |
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Jan --
I think some of this "Polish" nationalism in the US started earlier than that. (I write "Polish", because these people are not Polish, can't speak a full sentence of Polish, and don't even know much about Poland.) They had their own national churches in the 19th century, many of which were excommunicated for many decades. Some of the complaints of these current "Poles" date back to the 19th century and can be proven completely false, but they don't care to find out about that, and if you tell them they won't listen.
One thing that started bothering me last week was how many blue-collar Polish-Americans I meet who try to explain to me how the Poles used to be (according to them) treated worse than blacks in the US. Of course, these people are not a large percentage of Polish-Americans, but there are enough of them to be visible, and they'll tell you these weird stories even if you don't bring up the subject.
One day a man told me about how his ancestors came to the US in the 19th century and landed in Boston. There (according to him) they were discriminated against and oppressed by the Irish. This is a bizarre tale, because at the time, the Irish on the East Coast had poverty and social status almost as bad as blacks had. They lived in ghettos, and many stores and other businesses posted signs on their doors that said, "NO IRISH." To my knowledge, there was never a time when signs were posted forbidding Poles to enter stores. How a group that was almost at the bottom of the social ladder -- and dirt poor at the time -- could have been oppressing the Poles, I have no idea.
The man went on to say that his ancestors left Boston to escape this oppression, came to Detroit and were then oppressed and discriminated against by the Germans. The problem with that story is that the German and Polish communities in Detroit were more or less mixed together at the time. I don't know where he gets this stuff.
Last week was the craziest one. I was shopping at our local Polish supermarket (for good bread that Americans don't bake!), and an American man struck up a conversation with me. I mentioned that the Polish folk music that was playing sounded like American cowboy music from the 1940s. The man answered, "Well, it's possible! They brought us over in the 1730s as the white slaves." I yelped at him, "THE POLISH PEOPLE WERE NEVER SLAVES IN THIS COUNTRY! WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THAT?" He insisted that the Poles were indeed brought here as slaves, and kept in slavery for a long time, "And then they found the black people," so that (according to him) the Poles were finally freed. So according to his story, the first slaves were brought from Poland, and only later were slaves brought from Africa.
This is all bizarre, counter-intuitive, counter-factual stuff, but I meet Polish-Americans often enough who say things like this. These particular people really feel a need to be considered an oppressed minority group, despite the educational and economic success Poles have had here for more than two centuries. Again, real Poles from Poland never hang out with these people. They're too busy with education and work. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Wed May 17, 2006 22:55 pm Do you like immigrants? |
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Jamie you talk now about
Polish National Catholic Church
It is quite interesting and I guess they are still present in Michigan.
I can describe them as typical North Americans or a bit different Polish Americans but they are so and so present even in Poland ( they were moving 1920 to liberated Poland and the head of church was head of Polish State)
They were used because of they pro-Polish state orientation
by communist against Rome Catholic Church but People were not involved Communist had stolen the idea this is small group and without real meaning.
They Polish Manifestation is a bit amusement and a bit pro patriotic I think in states you have quite a lot different groups.
The PNCC was founded in the late 1800s in North America by Polish Roman Catholics resentful of diocesan ownership of their parishes and the dominance of the Roman Catholic Church in North America at that time by German and Irish prelates. (In this way the movement response for the PNCC's formation resembles the movement among the Ruthenium/Carpathian-Rusyn Uniates in North America away from Catholicism and towards Orthodoxy.) Its first leader and bishop was Francis Hodur.
The PNCC was the largest member of the Union of Utrecht. All orders of its clergy (including bishops) have been allowed to marry since 1921. Mass is celebrated in both Polish (the vernacular of the PNCC's founders) and local vernaculars. As a member of the Union of Utrecht the PNCC rejects a number of Roman Catholic dogmas insisting that they are theological novelties, including the infallibility of the Pope, the Immaculate Conception of the Mary the Ever-Virgin and Mother of God, and original sin.
Although the PNCC has entered into tentative negotiations with the Orthodox Church in North America, no union has resulted due to the PNCC's refusal to abandon several Western concepts (including the Western Church's view of the Holy Trinity and of the sacraments).
Membership has been claimed to be as high as 250,000; however, there is no convincing evidence for this figure. Inside and outside observers place the total much lower. In the United States, as of 1998, total membership is approximately anywhere between 30,000 and 60,000.
regards
Jan |
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Jan
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| Thu May 18, 2006 0:34 am Do you like immigrants? |
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You surprised me, Jan. I didn't know that there were any parishes of the Polish National Catholic Church left in Michigan, but there are three. The most prominent parishes in the state that used to belong to that church have rejoined the Roman Catholic Church. You can always tell which ones they were, because they have their own cemeteries in what, during the 19th century, was the outskirts of town (but is now the middle of the city).
It's funny that they broke off from the Roman church because of the dominance of German and Irish clergy here. Now some people resent the dominance of Polish clergy in this country.
Another Pole has told me that the PNCC was used as a puppet of the communist party not only after the war. He claims it received support from the Bolsheviks in the early years after the October Revolution. I don't know whether he's right or not. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Thu May 18, 2006 12:47 pm Do you like immigrants? |
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Hi,
no I don't believe in any role of Bolshevist in creation of PNCC , Polish were looking for freedom in States if they were unable to live in free there would had moved to Argentina believe me.
Conflicts ,national conflicts from country were taken over ocean, they have some option how to help themselves
and they did it.
Irish in East coast of USA and Canada have so many churches ,organizations , legends and martyrs ( don't mention the Irish Pubs) that this small group could just copy what was around them in everyday live.
I have to admit I gave up many years ago and betrayed
Polish Zywiec or German Beck and I drink mostly Irish Guinness ( Irish done by English noble namily what a mess)
regards
Jan |
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Jan
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| Thu May 18, 2006 14:14 pm Do you like immigrants? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | One day a man told me about how his ancestors came to the US in the 19th century and landed in Boston. There (according to him) they were discriminated against and oppressed by the Irish. This is a bizarre tale, because at the time, the Irish on the East Coast had poverty and social status almost as bad as blacks had. They lived in ghettos, and many stores and other businesses posted signs on their doors that said, "NO IRISH." To my knowledge, there was never a time when signs were posted forbidding Poles to enter stores. How a group that was almost at the bottom of the social ladder -- and dirt poor at the time -- could have been oppressing the Poles, I have no idea.
The man went on to say that his ancestors left Boston to escape this oppression, came to Detroit and were then oppressed and discriminated against by the Germans. The problem with that story is that the German and Polish communities in Detroit were more or less mixed together at the time. I don't know where he gets this stuff. |
Hi Jamie
From what I've read, researchers have concluded that the posting of "No Irish" signs in the U.S. is basically a myth. As I understand it, researchers have been able to verify the existence of "No Irish" signs/advertisements in Britain and also in Canada (historically), but have found little or no evidence that supports this in the U.S.
Where do people get this stuff? I've seen this phenomenon "live" on a small scale. I don't think it's all that much different from what sometimes happens on the Army bases here. Somebody on base misinterprets a piece of information in a story and as the "new" story is then told and retold, the misinterpretation is also passed along. At some point the "new version" of the story is generally considered to be fact - no matter how ridiculous it might be - simply because so many people have heard it. Americans tend to be "insular" here, so there is often not enough contact/communication with German society, which of course would help dispel the myths.
Amy
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| Thu May 18, 2006 22:28 pm Do you like immigrants? |
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| Yankee wrote: | | From what I've read, researchers have concluded that the posting of "No Irish" signs in the U.S. is basically a myth. As I understand it, researchers have been able to verify the existence of "No Irish" signs/advertisements in Britain and also in Canada (historically), but have found little or no evidence that supports this in the U.S. |
I have now looked and seen quite a few explanations on the web as to the supposed absence of signs and advertisements that said, "No Irish need apply." I had never heard of such messages included in job advertisements. What I had heard (in school and from my parents) was that restaurants, bars and stores sometimes had signs forbidding entry to Irish patrons. Later I saw a movie from the 1930s -- not a historical movie, but one that was meant to look realistic for the time -- and a grocery store in it displayed a sign that said "No Irish" along with the other elements used to make it look realistic. I took this as confirmation that such signs must have existed.
Even in recent decades, when signs of that sort were already illegal, you could still witness similar phenomena. In one neighborhood near me, Polish eagles pastered all over the facade and interior of a bar were meant to convey the message "Albanians are not welcome." There had been a lot of trouble with violence among the lower elements of the Albanian community (vendettas, impromptu murders, etc.), and instead of putting up explicit, illegal signs banning them, the bar owners just put up a lot of white eagles. A bar down the street from me deliberately decorates with an extreme redneck theme in order to keep blacks out. So "No Irish" signs aimed at business patrons were completely possible. |
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Jamie (K)
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Yankee
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| Thu May 18, 2006 23:56 pm Do you like immigrants? |
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| Yankee wrote: | Detroit is starting to sound like the new Wild West.
I'm sure that the kinds of things you describe do happen, and not only in Detroit. |
There are scarier and less scary parts of Detroit, but as used as I am to navigating the scary parts, some stories about Chicago and LA scare me out of my wits. At least in Detroit there are no neighborhoods where the police won't go. LA seems to have more of those wonderful drive-by shootings than we do. Anywhere there are gangs, drugs or psychopaths, there is danger.
| Yankee wrote: | | What I also think is interesting in the States is how everybody always says "I'm Italian", "I'm Irish", etc. even when they're 3rd or 4th generation (or more). Of course, this is usually said to identify the family roots and not to claim citizenship. |
The thing that gets me is when I see fair-skinned, red-haired, green-eyed Americans at Indian pow-wows blathering about "my people!" They probably have 1/8 Indian ancestry or less. I figure they don't have any other identity established, so they take up that one. Or maybe they're trying to get excused from the guilt of their white oppressor ancestors.
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Jamie (K)
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| Writing a CV or r?sum? | I'm really disappointed...:(( |
