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 #32 (permalink) Wed Dec 14, 2011 18:54 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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It was a blessing for the world and for Germany that Germany's second attempt to conquer the world had failed too. As a result, Germany had to allow millions of Turkish migrant workers into the country, many of whom stayed. This is one of the factors that prevents Germany from trying to occupy the world a third time. Also, we now have a number of super powers that have enough control over Germany to keep them in check. If it weren't for them, I'm sure Germany would try to start WWIII and the country would get wiped out entirely in the process.
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| #33 (permalink) Wed Dec 14, 2011 19:01 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Claudia, if the Allies occupied West Germany only to battle communism, then they wouldn't have bothered to occupy Japan, because there were no communists pressing in. As Torsten said, it was to prevent Germany from starting another war. Imposition of democracy was part of that, and so was establishing an economy where the Germans would be fat and happy enough not to be aggressive. It worked. |
Japan was occupied for different reasons, and the Soviets were also interested in that country. Still, the occupation of Japan didn't last long, I believe it ended in the 1950s. American bases are there because Japan is happy to have them there. Russia still occupies a Japanese island.
Germany was on the end of its rope; it was finished. No way it could have started another war.
Claudia
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| #34 (permalink) Wed Dec 14, 2011 19:11 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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Japan is still occupied, as is South Korea.
Germany was at the end of its rope in 1918, and they still started another war. It was at the end of its rope in 1945, but by the 1950s it was advanced enough to start another war, but it didn't, because it was occupied and not allowed to have its own military of any size. Of course, that's just one reason it didn't start a war. |
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| #35 (permalink) Wed Dec 14, 2011 19:24 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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WWI was ended in Germany due to revolutions of our own people and military as well as the collapse of its Bulgarian allies. Germany was not at the end of its rope then. It was only a truce. A completely different situation. In the 1950s, the German military resembled more the American military (and Soviet military in the East), than a German one. Germany had nothing left other than that what was given to it.
Claudia
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| #36 (permalink) Wed Dec 14, 2011 19:26 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Japan is still occupied |
What do you mean, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
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| #37 (permalink) Wed Dec 14, 2011 19:42 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| It was a blessing for the world and for Germany that Germany's second attempt to conquer the world had failed too. As a result, Germany had to allow millions of Turkish migrant workers into the country, many of whom stayed. This is one of the factors that prevents Germany from trying to occupy the world a third time. Also, we now have a number of super powers that have enough control over Germany to keep them in check. If it weren't for them, I'm sure Germany would try to start WWIII and the country would get wiped out entirely in the process. |
Turkish immigrants are not responsible for German political decisions.
And except for Hitler, when did Germany ever want to conquer the whole world?!
Germany is not the same Germany as in 1933.
Claudia
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| #38 (permalink) Wed Dec 14, 2011 20:36 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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Claudia, we cannot put the blame on one single Austrian. WWII was a joint project of the German nation and society. Hitler and the Nazis were backed by large parts of the German society and economy. It's not good enough to say WWII and all the holocaust was a caused by Hitler who wasn't even German. Also, the East German armed forces very much resembled Hitler's army. I had to serve the German army and the uniform we wore was exactly that of the Wehrmacht. The Dienstvorschrift and the ranks very the same too.
We even kept the Reichsbahn in East Germany other relics of the Nazi regime.
It would be a big mistake to allow Germany again to get into a position where it can start another world war. And yes, the foreigners living in Germany do have a great impact on the political decisions Germany makes. If it weren't for the foreigners living here, Germany might have already tried to start another world war.
That's the big difference between Germany and the US: Germany's population largely consists of 'ethnic Germans' while the population of the US is made up of a great variety of ethnic groups.
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| #39 (permalink) Wed Dec 14, 2011 21:49 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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The German Imperial Railway was already founded in 1920. It's just as much or less fascist as Wagner.
After the WW1 the Treaty of Versailles was passed by the League of Nations, the predecessor of the UNO that forced Germany into Fascism, at least a quite unanimous conception of modern historians. The USA voted against that treaty that has led to the veto power in the UNO after the WW2. I mean veto at that time no war. But there was a lot of hatred in Europe at all.
The Zionism movement was already founded in 1898 for a case of injustice in French.
We cannot really judge what happened in those days, but I know people all over the world want to live in peace with their families. Wars are products of some first of all male idiots that think they were God.
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| #40 (permalink) Wed Dec 14, 2011 22:04 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| Claudia, we cannot put the blame on one single Austrian. WWII was a joint project of the German nation and society. Hitler and the Nazis were backed by large parts of the German society and economy. It's not good enough to say WWII and all the holocaust was a caused by Hitler who wasn't even German. |
I think I'm being misunderstood. I didn't say it was only one man's fault. I neither excuse nor condone the Nazi regime. Still, Hitler was the leading force and head behind it all. He was at the right place at the right time. Also, it wasn't only Germans and their society and economy who supported the Nazi regime. Many groups and people of other countries were also involved. There were many opponents to Hitler and his cronies in Germany, but they were subdued and/or executed along with the Jews. That's what a dictatorship is: it dictates what one is allowed to do, say, and think.
| Torsten wrote: |
| Also, the East German armed forces very much resembled Hitler's army. I had to serve the German army and the uniform we wore was exactly that of the Wehrmacht. The Dienstvorschrift and the ranks very the same too. |
Yes, the uniforms, marches and ranks were still German (same in the Bundeswehr), but the weapons were either the old stuff with new paint on it, which was too few and quickly became outdated--or foreign.
| Torsten wrote: |
| We even kept the Reichsbahn in East Germany other relics of the Nazi regime. |
All in all, not enough to start another war, especially not at the time when the occupation began.
| Torsten wrote: |
| It would be a big mistake to allow Germany again to get into a position where it can start another world war. And yes, the foreigners living in Germany do have a great impact on the political decisions Germany makes. If it weren't for the foreigners living here, Germany might have already tried to start another world war. |
Please explain to me how foreigners living in Germany prevent Germany from starting another world war? Foreign immigrants influence political decisions in inner-political matters concerning foreign immigrants, but not so much in foreign affairs. When do politicians ever care about their people?!
| Torsten wrote: |
| That's the big difference between Germany and the US: Germany's population largely consists of 'ethnic Germans' while the population of the US is made up of a great variety of ethnic groups. |
You've just said it yourself: Germany's population largely consists of 'ethnic Germans'. Not enough foreigners to really make a difference in Germany's politics. Foreign immigrants are important, but in other ways.
Why do you believe at all that Germany would want to try and conquer the world again, and why a third time? I only know of one time, and that was during Hitler's dictatorship.
When Hitler hit the scene, Germans didn't expect things to turn out the way it eventually did. And once he was in power and secured in his position, it was nearly impossible to get rid of him. We never know how it would have turned out, had there not been a war. Perhaps, Germans would have revolted against him and overthrown him, but a dictatorship lasts many years before people wake up or gather enough courage to fight it. We see this now happening in other countries, where dictators are being overthrown. Germans never had the chance, as Hitler was only in power for a few years, and war was raging.
Claudia
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| #41 (permalink) Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:37 am My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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| Cgk wrote: |
| I think I'm being misunderstood. I didn't say it was only one man's fault. I neither excuse nor condone the Nazi regime. Still, Hitler was the leading force and head behind it all. He was at the right place at the right time. Also, it wasn't only Germans and their society and economy who supported the Nazi regime. Many groups and people of other countries were also involved. There were many opponents to Hitler and his cronies in Germany, but they were subdued and/or executed along with the Jews. That's what a dictatorship is: it dictates what one is allowed to do, say, and think. |
So 'other countries' than Germany were responsible for the autrocities the Germans commited? 'Many other groups and people of other countries' are to blame for the damage the Germans caused to the world? Yes, there were a quite few opponents to Hitler and his regime but there weren't enough. There are always two sides to a dictatorship: the government and the people who elected or tolerated its government.
The Germans tolerated and supported the Nazis. The German people allowed the Nazis to commit their crimes and they were not strong enough to get rid of their own criminal government. It's not good enough to say the Nazis were supported by foreign groups and foreign people. The Nazis were an integral part of the German society and they enjoyed strong support from their people, the Germans. Check the numbers. Find how many Germans joined the NSDAP, how many Germans were members of the SS, the Gestapo, the Hitler Jugend, officers of the Wehrmacht, Rassenlehre teachers and a whole host of other organizations that supported the Nazi regime. When Hitler shouted "Wollt Ihr den totalen Krieg", how many Germans shouted "Ja!"? How many Germans followed the mantra "Führer befiehl, wir folgen dir!"?
| Cgk wrote: |
| Please explain to me how foreigners living in Germany prevent Germany from startingnother world war? Foreign immigrants influence political decisions in inner-political matters concerning foreign immigrants, but not so much in foreign affairs. When do politicians ever care about their people?! |
This is very simple. Now, that Germany has quite a substantial portions of immigrants living here, Germany's chances of getting enough support for a similar regime to the Nazis are low. Hitler got so much support because back then Germany's population consisted largely of 'ethnic Germans' it was easy for him to persuade the Germans that the Jews are to blame for the economic misery the Germans were enduring. If Germany wanted to establish another Nazi regime today, they would be facing much more resitance from the foreigners living in Germany than back then. If you say that politicians don't care about their people it shows two things: First of all you don't consider the current system in Germany a democracy. Secondly, you find it convenient to have a scapegoat when things go wrong. You can complain about everything you are unhappy with because based on your logic, the politicians are to blame. What you are failing to see is that nobody is born as a politician. Politicians are part of the society and the nation. The are the ones who make the decisions for those who are either to weak or too comfortable to make decisions for themselves.
| Cgk wrote: |
| Why do you believe at all that Germany would want to try and conquer the world again, and why a third time? I only know of one time, and that was during Hitler's dictatorship. |
Which fact are you denying, the fact that there was there were two world wars or the fact that both of them were started by Germany?
| Cgk wrote: |
| When Hitler hit the scene, Germans didn't expect things to turn out the way it eventually did. And once he was in power and secured in his position, it was nearly impossible to get rid of him. We never know how it would have turned out, had there not been a war. Perhaps, Germans would have revolted against him and overthrown him, but a dictatorship lasts many years before people wake up or gather enough courage to fight it. We see this now happening in other countries, where dictators are being overthrown. Germans never had the chance, as Hitler was only in power for a few years, and war was raging. Claudia |
So the poor Germans didn't expect things to turn out the way it eventually did? Is this the excuse we use to explain what we did to the world? This is the excuse to explain why we allowed this little Austrian pschycopath to introduce Rassenlehre in our schools? In an organized and sufficient manner German children were taught at school that the German race is superior to any other race in the world. They were taught that the Jews and Slavic people were 'Untermenschen'. The Germans accepted this and went along with it. The Germans allowed the Nazis to force every person they classified as Jewish to wear the Judenstern all the time. The Nazis even had Begattungsoffiziere whose job it was to produce 'genetically clean' offspring. The Germans let the Nazis infiltrate every aspect of the German society so they could execute and terminate human beings on an industrial level. There is only one country which is to blame for the holocaust and all the other autrocities the SS, the Wehrmacht, the Gestapo and the Nazis commited: Germany.
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| #42 (permalink) Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:49 am My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| So 'other countries' than Germany were responsible for the autrocities the Germans commited? 'Many other groups and people of other countries' are to blame for the damage the Germans caused to the world? |
You are putting words in my mouth, and I won't have it. Please reread what I said or I cannot continue with this conversation. I am more than willing to discuss this part of history, but I will not suffer accusations!
Claudia
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| #43 (permalink) Thu Dec 15, 2011 16:00 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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Dear Claudia,
I'm not afraid of any language. I learn German as the root of English. Then I found German pronunciation is much easier than English while its grammar is much more complicated than English. You wouldn't believe that I was the No.1 in my class and passed the first year exams with credits, in 1988. Aber jetzt Ich Vergesse Alles. Since I have no job now ( I'm not a jobless, I'm a quitter,lol )
I'm studying my German again and as I love the sound of Spanish I'm learning Spanish too. Free man's life, you know. Don't have to say Yes. Yes. Yes. to anyone anymore.lol. I love it. And can have laugh at the rat race.
Burmese speak most language with a good pronunciation. Only R as in Rat , we tend to say Y sound as in Yet. Once I said, Ruin as Urine and my senior ridiculed me like hell. lol.
Yet, our religion and literature came from India as you know. Burma was once the bully in the neighbourhood, we robbed others' cultures and arts and pretended as our own for ages up to now. lol. Then the other three bullies came bullied us. The winner takes it all. That's the law of mankind.
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| #44 (permalink) Thu Dec 15, 2011 18:53 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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| Mr. Kyaw Min Lwin wrote: |
Dear Claudia,
I'm not afraid of any language. I learn German as the root of English. Then I found German pronunciation is much easier than English while its grammar is much more complicated than English. You wouldn't believe that I was the No.1 in my class and passed the first year exams with credits, in 1988. Aber jetzt Ich Vergesse Alles. Since I have no job now ( I'm not a jobless, I'm a quitter,lol )
I'm studying my German again and as I love the sound of Spanish I'm learning Spanish too. Free man's life, you know. Don't have to say Yes. Yes. Yes. to anyone anymore.lol. I love it. And can have laugh at the rat race.
Burmese speak most language with a good pronunciation. Only R as in Rat , we tend to say Y sound as in Yet. Once I said, Ruin as Urine and my senior ridiculed me like hell. lol.
Yet, our religion and literature came from India as you know. Burma was once the bully in the neighbourhood, we robbed others' cultures and arts and pretended as our own for ages up to now. lol. Then the other three bullies came bullied us. The winner takes it all. That's the law of mankind.
kind regards. |
Hi Kyaw,
You never struck me as a timid man, lol. :-) I enjoy your humor. To me, you seem to be very easygoing. I like that. It is so cool that you passed as Nr. 1 in your class. That's quite an accomplishment! Yes, that's the thing: if you don't keep practicing a language, you're going to forget a lot of what you've learned. Wer rastet, der rostet (if you don't use it, you lose it). You know, if you can afford not to be a slave to a boss, then more power to you! You only live once. At least you are using your free time for something useful such as learning and relearning languages, and hopefully, you are spending a lot of time with your loved ones, too. :-)
Claudia
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| #45 (permalink) Thu Dec 15, 2011 19:23 pm My Favourite Country in this Decade |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Japan is still occupied, as is South Korea. |
The American military bases are in Japan because Japan gave its permission. Japan is not occupied by American forces. Russia, however, is still occupying a few islands in Japan, and it doesn't want to give them up, which is causing a lot of controversy. Did you ever hear of the Kuril Islands dispute?
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Germany was at the end of its rope in 1918, and they still started another war. It was at the end of its rope in 1945, but by the 1950s it was advanced enough to start another war, but it didn't, because it was occupied and not allowed to have its own military of any size. Of course, that's just one reason it didn't start a war. |
Germany was weakened after WWI, just as all the other empires and countries, but it was not at the end of its rope just then. What brought Germany to the brink of destruction was the treaty of Versailles. This treaty is now regarded, even among historians and experts in many countries other than Germany, as one of the most doubtful and unfair treaties of all time. Even the USA was not certain back then if it was right to agree with it and had a great controversy among its politicians before it was ratified.
At the collapse of the empires and the replacement of ruling nobles, various kinds of political systems arose. In the east, communism began to establish itself (shooting of the czars family Romanov), and fascism took root in Germany, as the great depression was so immense, that it ended German democracy.
So really, I am not going to thank the USA, the British and the French for "forcing" democracy on Germany because they never had to force Germany to be democratic. Germany had a democracy before. I am thankful to the USA for many things, but not that.
Claudia
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