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 #17 (permalink) Wed Apr 05, 2006 16:05 pm English vs Spanish |
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Hey Andreana,
How are you doing? Sorry it took so long to get back to you! My Internet was not working yesterday! Wow! It's kind of hard to explain what exactly I do here, because I do so many different things. The name of the organization I'm with is FIRE (Fellowship for International Revival and Evangelism) who is connected to FI (FIRE International). FI is an organization whose goal is to send out missionaries worldwide. So I am a volunteer to both FIRE which is the church and FI. FIRE has lots of Ministries that go from visiting elderly people in Nursing homes to visiting people in prison facilities. So, my function is to go to the University of NC and teach the Word and disciple people from there. Sometimes I do Nursery Work (which consists of watching kid's during a church service). I do paper work at both FIRE and FI offices; like folding missionaries's support letters and putting them in envelopes so they can be mailed and I help with FIRE's newsletter, sending out their DVD, etc. I also help other church members needs like babysitting, house painting, etc. Basically when they need volunteers, I am one of them. So, well, in a sort of way I am a missionary here. :wink:
Oh and Jamie, thanks for your compliments. I'll work on capitalizing those words, thanks for pointing that out. I had been wondering about it. :D |
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Caroline
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 23
Location: United States
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| #18 (permalink) Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:19 am FIRE - missionary work? |
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Hello Caroline, thank you for answering my questions. In a way it's funny, you are also from South America and now we are communicating in English via the web. How often do you go online? I have permanent access to the net from university and from home but I try to limit my online time to study purposes. Sometimes I get lost in the flood of information available in cyber space.
So you are working for FIRE. Do you also travel with them sometimes? Would you like to become a 'real' missionary? What is your neighborhood like, I mean what kind of people live in your area? Tell me more about your life in the US - I have never been there and would really like to know more. Thank you and have a good time.
Andreana
_________________
A smile will open doors ;-) |
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Andreana
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 204
Location: Argentina
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| #19 (permalink) Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:11 am English vs Spanish |
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| Caroline wrote: |
| The name of the organization I'm with is FIRE (Fellowship for International Revival and Evangelism) who is connected to FI (FIRE International). FI is an organization whose goal is to send out missionaries worldwide. |
Caroline, they sound like one of those organizations that go to Christian countries and try to convert people who are already Christian to Christianity. The logic of that has always been mysterious to me. Can you explain it? |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #20 (permalink) Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:51 am English vs Spanish |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Caroline wrote: |
| The name of the organization I'm with is FIRE (Fellowship for International Revival and Evangelism) who is connected to FI (FIRE International). FI is an organization whose goal is to send out missionaries worldwide. |
Caroline, they sound like one of those organizations that go to Christian countries and try to convert people who are already Christian to Christianity. The logic of that has always been mysterious to me. Can you explain it? |
Jamie, I see your point and I would make the same kind of comment myself. But you can surely guess (in fact, I know you know it :wink: ) that it's about being actively Christian. So many Christians are so by name only, that it can do no harm for them (for us?) to be 'redirected on the right path' and be recalled to their best selves.
Now I'm curious to hear what Caroline has to say on this subject. |
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Conchita
Language Coach
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2826
Location: Madrid, Spain
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| #21 (permalink) Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:02 pm English vs Spanish |
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| Conchita wrote: |
| Jamie, I see your point and I would make the same kind of comment myself. But you can surely guess (in fact, I know you know it :wink: ) that it's about being actively Christian. So many Christians are so by name only, that it can do no harm for them (for us?) to be 'redirected on the right path' and be recalled to their best selves. |
Right. That's one good point.
However, some of these groups are trying to convert people who are already actively Christian to their own form of Christianity. Some of them are very hostile to the forms of Christianity that already exist in those countries (largely because they have been told things about other Christians that are not true). I have talked to Evangelicals who believe that Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians and other non-Evangelicals are going directly to hell, so there can be another issue here. I admire Caroline's volunteering to meet the needs of the sick and disadvantaged. What I am trying to figure out is whether her group thinks that Catholic and Orthodox Christians (and others) are "not Christian" and need to be "saved". |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #22 (permalink) Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:31 pm English vs Spanish |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
Right. That's one good point.
However, some of these groups are trying to convert people who are already actively Christian to their own form of Christianity. Some of them are very hostile to the forms of Christianity that already exist in those countries (largely because they have been told things about other Christians that are not true). I have talked to Evangelicals who believe that Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians and other non-Evangelicals are going directly to hell, so there can be another issue here. I admire Caroline's volunteering to meet the needs of the sick and disadvantaged. What I am trying to figure out is whether her group thinks that Catholic and Orthodox Christians (and others) are "not Christian" and need to be "saved". |
I see what you mean. Some of these groups are sects and, according to the testimonies given by many ex-members, can be very dangerous mentally -- in the best of cases only economically, as so many sects are profit-oriented. |
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Conchita
Language Coach
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2826
Location: Madrid, Spain
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| #23 (permalink) Thu Apr 06, 2006 23:27 pm English vs Spanish |
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| Conchita wrote: |
| I see what you mean. Some of these groups are sects and, according to the testimonies given by many ex-members, can be very dangerous mentally -- in the best of cases only economically, as so many sects are profit-oriented. |
No, I don't mean cults ("sect" is an innocent term in English; you're talking about cults). Cults are those crazy mind-control religions that brainwash people and have them do dangerous things. I'm almost positive that's not what Caroline belongs to.
What I am talking about are Protestant fundamentalist churches that practice forms of Christianity that are not unusual but that teach people to be hostile to mainline denominations. They do really good public service, but at the same time they have a lot of false beliefs about other types of Christianity. For example, they think that Catholics are taught to worship statues or to worship Mary. Many of them are taught that Catholics believe you can "buy" your way into heaven by doing good works. Of course, none of these things are true -- quite the opposite.
Typical groups of this type believe that all doctrine must come directly from the Bible. (However, this dictate is nowhere in the Bible, so their idea that all doctrine must be directly biblical is itself non-biblical. Also, the Bible wasn't compiled until centuries after Christ left, and it was the church that put it together.) Many of them believe that at the moment you "accept Christ as your personal savior" you are automatically saved from then on, no matter what you do. This idea is also not really biblical and is explicitly refuted by several biblical passages.
Most people I've met from these churches are very pleasant, and they truly want to do good for people. It all comes from their hearts, but they have been misinformed about other religions, and that leads them to believe that they have to "save" the people who belong to them. Some of them are mean-spirited, but you find people like that in every church. I'm all for them helping people, but I'm not for them spreading false beliefs about other religions.
But one thing for sure, most of them are not cults. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #24 (permalink) Sat Apr 08, 2006 16:08 pm English vs Spanish |
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Hello Jamie and Conchita,
Wow! I didn't know I would start a whole debate here. haha! Anyway, here is my answer, sorry it took so long.
The work of a missionary:
The Bible says:
" 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matthew 28:18-20 (NIV)
Of course to be able to do such work other things are included, like missionaries usually need to plant churches so the ministry can keep growing and stay in the place long enough to train nationals so they can later take over the ministry initiated by the missionary. That could take months or years.
Some people never heard the Gospel or the name Jesus.
Jamie wrote:
| Quote: |
| However, some of these groups are trying to convert people who are already actively Christian to their own form of Christianity. Some of them are very hostile to the forms of Christianity that already exist in those countries (largely because they have been told things about other Christians that are not true). I have talked to Evangelicals who believe that Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians and other non-Evangelicals are going directly to hell, so there can be another issue here. I admire Caroline's volunteering to meet the needs of the sick and disadvantaged. What I am trying to figure out is whether her group thinks that Catholic and Orthodox Christians (and others) are "not Christian" and need to be "saved”. |
I don’t believe all Catholics are going to hell same way I don’t believe all Evangelicals are going to heaven. I have met Catholics who I believe are saved and I have met people who say they are evangelicals and think they are “saved” but really aren’t.
The Scriptures have been misinterpreted a lot. That is why there are so many different Christian denominations. The bible says that the Devil comes to steal, kill and destroy and he is surely doing a good job. The Body of Christ is becoming more and more separated. (If you can put these two last sentences together) :wink:
Jamie wrote:
| Quote: |
| Typical groups of this type believe that all doctrine must come directly from the Bible. (However, this dictate is nowhere in the Bible, so their idea that all doctrine must be directly biblical is itself non-biblical. Also, the Bible wasn't compiled until centuries after Christ left, and it was the church that put it together.) |
I believe the Bible is the source of truth. I believe the original Scriptures are inerrant and divinely inspired, and the Bible happens to be a collection of those scriptures :wink: . Therefore I see no wrong in using it as a standard. I am careful to choose the ones that are closest in translation to the original scriptures though.
The original Scriptures were written by people that were in close contact with God. The New Testament was written by people who were responsible for the foundations of Christianity, therefore why can’t doctrine come from the Bible? If the foundation of Christianity itself is in there?
Jaime wrote:
| Quote: |
| Many of them believe that at the moment you "accept Christ as your personal savior" you are automatically saved from then on, no matter what you do. |
I believe that if you “accept Christ as your Savior” you are “saved” but I don’t agree with the statement “once saved always saved therefore you can sin as much as you want, however you want". I do not agree with that. But I don’t deny some people believe in it.
Lastly:
This is what I believe. Eternal death came to humankind through Adam. Because of his sin we were separated from God.
Through the atoning death of Jesus on the Cross, God established a New Covenant with humanity. Through his Resurrection He defeated death. That is why it is so important to recognize Jesus as our Savior, because our relationship with God begins once we get a hold of that truth. That’s God’s New Covenant.
When we receive that truth we are under this New Covenant and God shall remember our PAST sins NO MORE.
From that moment on we have a new life, where we learn how to live according to His standards. This process is called Sanctification and we go through that until our time here on Earth is over. After that we are glorified and shall have eternal life.
I can assure you that all those statements are biblical.
Talk to you later.
Carol |
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Caroline
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 23
Location: United States
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| #25 (permalink) Sat Apr 08, 2006 21:24 pm English vs Spanish |
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Dear Andreana,
I am online pretty often because I write tests for this web site.So, if you wish to have more contact with me you are welcomed to add me to your messenger list. I don't get to travel with FIRE because it's too risky to get in and out of the country when you don't have permanent resident status. If I leave the country at all is to visit my family and renew my visa.
Yes, I want to do missions in other places.Even though there are a lot of American organizations sending out missionaries to other places, they send people to America too. That is why I say I'm a type of missionary, because I'm part of a ministry here. Serving the community is not all I do. About my neighborhood...well...there's not a lot to say. I live with a family. Their daughter just graduated from college. Her parents are on their mid 50's and live in a neighborhood where most people are probably on their mid 70's. I haven't met anybody around my age. I have moved around a lot though. I live in a small city and people are really friendly. I'm in the South. There are a lot of differences between North and South. I don't exactly know how to point out all the differences other than the fact that people from the North are "city" people and Southern people are "country" people. They have real different accents too. I constantly see people from the north giving a hard to time to southerners because of their accent and their way of living. I bet all countries do that. Same thing happens in Brazil. Except that the most developed places are in the south and the least developed ones in the North.
Hope to talk to you soon!
Carol |
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Caroline
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 23
Location: United States
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| #26 (permalink) Sun Apr 09, 2006 0:31 am English vs Spanish |
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| Caroline wrote: |
| I don’t believe all Catholics are going to hell same way I don’t believe all Evangelicals are going to heaven. I have met Catholics who I believe are saved and I have met people who say they are evangelicals and think they are “saved” but really aren’t. |
Then your beliefs are more or less normal mainline Christianity.
| Caroline wrote: |
I believe the Bible is the source of truth. I believe the original Scriptures are inerrant and divinely inspired, and the Bible happens to be a collection of those scriptures :wink: . Therefore I see no wrong in using it as a standard. I am careful to choose the ones that are closest in translation to the original scriptures though.
The original Scriptures were written by people that were in close contact with God. The New Testament was written by people who were responsible for the foundations of Christianity, therefore why can’t doctrine come from the Bible? If the foundation of Christianity itself is in there? |
The scriptures are not complete, they do not deal directly with every situation, and they have to be interpreted. So, they form the basis of doctrine, but the church is needed to explain their meaning and application. Some Christians claim not to recognize any authority other than the Bible, and to operate only on direct revelation, but then they turn right around and submit to the authority of their church and pastor. So even the ones who say they follow the Bible directly, actually follow their church. And in 1 Timothy 3:15, it says that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth. So the church is the basis, not the book, since the church created the book. The church draws doctrine from the Bible. The Bible doesn't spit out the doctrine by itself.
| Caroline wrote: |
| I believe that if you “accept Christ as your Savior” you are “saved” but I don’t agree with the statement “once saved always saved therefore you can sin as much as you want, however you want". I do not agree with that. But I don’t deny some people believe in it. |
Do you believe this?
| Quote: |
| You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. |
Be careful before you answer. I'm tricking you! :D |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #27 (permalink) Mon Apr 10, 2006 17:16 pm Spanish vs. English |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Caroline wrote: |
| I don't know in Europe, but here in the States there are a lot of spanish speaking immigrants, therefore knowing this language has become somewhat a necessity for americans to learn. |
I don't agree with you about it being necessary for Americans to learn Spanish. There are few or no places in the US where an English speaker needs Spanish to function.
I've brought this up in another posting, but I'll say here again that universities and companies that provide professional language training to employees in my area (Michigan) tell me that these are the top languages that companies here want their American employees to learn:
1. Spanish and German (tied for first place)
2. Japanese
3. Portuguese
However, only two of these are commonly taught in American schools, and many schools teach only one of them. |
I agree with Jamie completely. I live in the US in an area where immigrants are quickly becoming the main labor force. They come here to work and they bring their families. They are a very valuable labor force, especially for those who need hard manual labor. Unfortunately, they often come with little to no knowledge of the English language. Their children are learning in the schools and teaching some to parents, but many of the Americans here are having to learn the language to be able to accommodate them, as we have better resources and more ability to do so. I don't know that it will ever become the dominate language, but it is becoming almost necessary to know it to communicate with half of my local community. |
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Sunchild
New Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 8
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| #28 (permalink) Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:20 am English vs Spanish |
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Hey Jamie,
Sorry for the long delay. Just wanted to let you know that I saw what you wrote and that I do have an answer for you. If you are catholic I can pretty much assume you won't agree with me in certain points I have to make . It has also come to my understanding that you don't believe one is justified by faith alone and that one can only understand Scripture if someone interprets it for him.
Well, I say I believe you can interpret the Bible on your own too by letting God reveal Himself to you through His Word with the help of the Holy Spirit. Sure, Leaders of the Church can teach you stuff and show you ways of interpreting the Bible, but you need to be responsible for what you believe yourself. Do you want to come to God someday and say: I believe You, because someone said I was supposed to? God wants to see that you believe Him yourself. That You know in your heart that He is real. He knows you and He knows your heart better than anybody else. You can't lie to Him. And He will charge you for what you know.
Anyway, I could go on and give you answers to points you raised here, but I believe that you should get a Bible, pray before you read it asking God to reveal Himself to you and read His Word. And I know that He will guide you through it. I could give you answers, but we would probably get caught up in an endless debate and never really get anywhere. I want to challenge you to make conclusions yourself rather then on what somebody told you. By the way, when I say I could give you answers, I don't mean that I have answers for everything. God is too Great and is way beyond our understanding. That's where Faith steps in. If God (YAHWEH) was predictable and had limits, then He wouldn't be God.
As for the church being the Pillar and supporter of the truth, well, my interpretation of it is that the Church is not the Truth per say, but the holder of it. It does not have any authority over the Bible. In John chapter 1 you'll find verses like,
| Quote: |
| 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. |
and
| Quote: |
| The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. |
These are only a few verses that I decided to put down here but there are many more speaking of the importance of reading God's word.
Anyway, I have tons of other points to make. About everything you said. The innerancy of Scripture, justification, etc. But I'll stop here. Claudia has made a point to go back to the old topic. I would really like to encourage you to read the Bible though(in case you don't) and draw your own conclusions. In the book of Romans, Paul gives a real good overview on a lot of things we have discussed about. Hebrews too. These books are really short it won't take very long to finish them.That way it will not be me saying things, but you getting a hold of the truth yourself. You are still welcome to talk to me about these things and I extend this invitation to anyone else that is reading this and is also interested in talking about it. Just don't think it would be proper to do it on a web site that is directed to learning English.
As you read it, don't think about what people has told you. Not me or anybody else. Just read it, medidate on it, ask God to show you what the Scriptures mean. Then just wait for the results! |
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Caroline
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 23
Location: United States
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| #29 (permalink) Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:32 am English vs Spanish, or Christianity, or maybe Islam? |
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Hello everybody,
This discussion on the replacement of English by Spanish seems to have drifted a long way apart, which is what makes it more interesting to me. Being a Muslim living in a democratic and secular country, I have to say, I find this change of topic quite strange. I have difficulty understanding the relationship between language learning and religious missionary practice. I understand that the topic,somehow, changed along the way. What is striking is the range and length of the discussion and the interest it arouses. It reveals that people are more interested in the spiritual world than they are in the materail world.
So shall we go deeper into it?
Can I ask what you think of other religions, say, Islam, and their teachings and believers?
I have got to go now...
Looking forward to replies |
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Birolc
New Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
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| #30 (permalink) Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:02 am English vs Spanish |
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| Caroline wrote: |
| Sorry for the long delay. Just wanted to let you know that I saw what you wrote and that I do have an answer for you. If you are catholic I can pretty much assume you won't agree with me in certain points I have to make . It has also come to my understanding that you don't believe one is justified by faith alone and that one can only understand Scripture if someone interprets it for him. |
Caroline, you gave me the answer I expected when I gave you that Bible quotation:
| Quote: |
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. |
Evangelicals who believe in justification by faith alone usually have no good response to this citation, because it is scripture that directly contradicts their belief. For that reason, when you present them with it (and other citations like it), they generally ignore it and go off in some other direction. Sometimes they pretend you pointed to something else on the page and discuss that instead.
You are telling me to take a scripture that was written thousands of years ago, in a different historical context from ours, and in different literary traditions from ours, and just read it completely ignorant of those things. Doing it all on your own leads to some fallacious and often dangerous misinterpretations, as we have seen throughout history. No one would even dream of interpreting a sentence in a newspaper like, "Tigers flatten Twins on opening day" without knowing the cultural, social and linguistic context it was written in, but people frequently do the same with the Bible. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| This year... | A bit of a laugh ;-)? |
