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 #2 (permalink) Tue May 23, 2006 6:54 am Without vs. unless |
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Hi nutcracker_dancer
The teachers here could give you standard explanations for the meaning and usage of "without" and "unless", but these explanations would probably be similar to what you've already read or heard. And apparently "standard explanations" haven't clarified things for you.
I think it would help you more if we could talk about specific sentences that mix you up.
Why don't you try to write a few sentences of your own using the words "unless" and "without" and post them here. Then we can talk about specifics.
Amy
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Yankee
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| #3 (permalink) Thu Jun 08, 2006 17:26 pm Without vs. unless |
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| Yankee wrote: |
Hi nutcracker_dancer
The teachers here could give you standard explanations for the meaning and usage of "without" and "unless", but these explanations would probably be similar to what you've already read or heard. And apparently "standard explanations" haven't clarified things for you.
I think it would help you more if we could talk about specific sentences that mix you up.
Why don't you try to write a few sentences of your own using the words "unless" and "without" and post them here. Then we can talk about specifics.
Amy |
Hi Amy,
Well, I know the basic difference between "without" and "unless" (or at least I know how I use them, what I read in grammar books and have been taught), but what I would like to know is how conspicuous it would it seem to you (or others) if I used "without" instead of "unless" in a conditional clause, as in:
"You won't recognise me, without you have watched the show." (as in "you won't recognise me, unless you've watched the show // ~ you won't recognise me, without having watched the show").
So, what do you think? I can't find anything conclusive about this type of structure, so any help would be welcome!
Thanks in advance,
Honeybun |
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honeybun
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| #4 (permalink) Thu Jun 08, 2006 18:10 pm Without vs. unless |
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| honeybun wrote: |
Well, I know the basic difference between "without" and "unless" (or at least I know how I use them, what I read in grammar books and have been taught), but what I would like to know is how conspicuous it would it seem to you (or others) if I used "without" instead of "unless" in a conditional clause, as in:
"You won't recognise me, without you have watched the show." (as in "you won't recognise me, unless you've watched the show // ~ you won't recognise me, without having watched the show"). |
Hi "Honeybun"
Are you the same person as "nutcracker_dancer"? :lol:
I see you do know how to use the two! :D You gave two very good, correct examples. :D
Have you thought of the difference simply in terms of:
without= prepostition
unless=conjunction (joins two clauses, i.e."mini-sentences", with subject and verb)
???
That's two different functions. Or doesn't that help?
The word unless, like the word if, would be a typical conjunction in a conditional sentence. It joins the two clauses. Often you could think of unless as being similar in meaning to "if not": "You won't recognise me if you haven't watched the show." If you feel comfortable using IF-sentences, maybe thinking that way might help?
Your "mixed-up" example was: "You won't recognise me, without you have watched the show."
For a native speaker, I'd say, yes, that mistake would be very conspicuous.
Amy
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Yankee
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| #5 (permalink) Fri Jun 09, 2006 13:20 pm Without vs. unless |
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| nutcracker_dancer wrote: |
| What is the difference between without and unless? I always get them mixed up. |
We use "without" as a preposition, which means it is followed by a noun or a noun phrase. It is not followed by a verb, though it may be followed by a gerund. A gerund is the ing form of a verb. A gerund functions as a noun.
We use "unless" as a conjunction. Therefore, it is followed by a clause. A clause has a subject and a verb.
Let's have a look at some examples.
We can't eat at that restaurant without a reservation.
We can't eat at that restaurant unless we make a reservation.
without a reservation - This is a prepositional phrase.
unless we make a reservation - This is a dependent clause.
Here are a couple more examples.
Some people can't go without having coffee in the morning.
Some people don't feel right unless they have coffee in the morning.
There is also "do without", which is a phrasal verb. It's like saying "go without", but I wouldn't say the two are interchangeable all the time.
We'll have to do without mint. We don't have any left, and all the stores are closed. |
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Steve
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| #6 (permalink) Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:42 am Without vs. unless |
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| Yankee wrote: |
| honeybun wrote: |
Well, I know the basic difference between "without" and "unless" (or at least I know how I use them, what I read in grammar books and have been taught), but what I would like to know is how conspicuous it would it seem to you (or others) if I used "without" instead of "unless" in a conditional clause, as in:
"You won't recognise me, without you have watched the show." (as in "you won't recognise me, unless you've watched the show // ~ you won't recognise me, without having watched the show"). |
Hi "Honeybun"
Are you the same person as "nutcracker_dancer"? :lol:
I see you do know how to use the two! :D You gave two very good, correct examples. :D
Have you thought of the difference simply in terms of:
without= prepostition
unless=conjunction (joins two clauses, i.e."mini-sentences", with subject and verb)
???
That's two different functions. Or doesn't that help?
The word unless, like the word if, would be a typical conjunction in a conditional sentence. It joins the two clauses. Often you could think of unless as being similar in meaning to "if not": "You won't recognise me if you haven't watched the show." If you feel comfortable using IF-sentences, maybe thinking that way might help?
Your "mixed-up" example was: "You won't recognise me, without you have watched the show."
For a native speaker, I'd say, yes, that mistake would be very conspicuous.
Amy |
Hi Amy, thanks for the answer. Well, I was asking because it seems "without" used as a conjunction was 'in fashion' a long time ago. Actually, there are at least two sentences in Mark Twain's The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn built like the structure I proposed above as an example (using "without" like "unless"). I've also come across old extracts from religious sermons using the same type of structure. As I work in translation, I really wanted to know if it would sound odd to a native speaker (I understood the meaning of it, but it did sound odd to me!), because if it does sound odd, then the structure should be translated "oddly" too if you get my meaning...
Thanks then for the reply. And no, I'm not nutcracker_dancer :wink: .
Thanks Amy, bye for now.
Honeybun |
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Honeybun
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| #7 (permalink) Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:11 am Without vs. unless |
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Hi!
Sorry for slightly off-topic (unless or until ?):
I [will be doing / will do] that [until / unless] she asks me to stop.
Tamara
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| #8 (permalink) Wed Jun 21, 2006 13:35 pm Without vs. unless |
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Hi Tamara
That's an interesting question. :D
until:
I [will be doing / will do] that until she asks me to stop.
This sentence indicates that you fully expect to do a certain thing or things (whatever it is), and that you will stop only when she tells you to stop. Using "I will be doing that" could also possibly mean that the activity has already begun and you're referring to the expected continuation into the future.
unless:
I [will be doing / will do] that unless she asks me to stop.
This sentence gives me a headache :shock: and the reason is the word "stop". The word stop indicates that the activity will in fact begin i.e., you can't stop doing something without first beginning it.
Saying "I [will be doing / will do] that unless..." indicates that, under certain circumstances, the activity won't happen at all, i.e., will not even begin. So, using the word unless doesn't make much sense in the sentence. The word "stop" is not logical with the first half of the sentence when you connect the clauses with unless.
The only (unlikely) possibility where this "unless sentence" might work would be if "I will be doing" means "I've already begun and expect to continue in the future". The clause "unless she asks me to stop" would then mean "there will be no continuation of this activity into the future if she tells me to stop right now".
Amy
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| #9 (permalink) Wed Jun 21, 2006 18:54 pm Without vs. unless |
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Thanks a lot, Amy. (And terribly sorry for causing the headache.) :( :)
So (as far as I can understand):
1 (until) = I will be doing it WHILE she NOT asks (does’n ask?) me to stop (doing it.
2 (unless) = I will continue doing it just now IF she does NOT asks me to stop it immediately.
Almost the same contents, not? But different points of view.
In the first she probably supervises the process (of doing-that) and controls it knowing the condition for finishing or interrupting it at the right moment).
In the second – she seems to be generally against to doing-that (and has a power to halt it immediately and because of that).
As I think (maybe wrong) :).
Tamara
P.S. For the initial topic, my example was:
I don’t come unless (= if not) I receive her personal invitation. (-> without her invitation, I’ll not come).
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| #10 (permalink) Wed Jun 21, 2006 20:54 pm Without vs. unless |
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Hi Tamara
| Quote: |
| Almost the same contents, not? But different points of view. |
The meanings are fundmentally different, in my opinion:
The UNTIL sentence:
We know you will be doing it in the future. That is sure.
The UNLESS sentence:
We do not know for sure whether you will be doing it in the future or not.
| Quote: |
Sorry for slightly off-topic (unless or until ?):
I [will be doing / will do] that [until / unless] she asks me to stop. |
Where did your sentence come from?
Was that a sentence (question) from your English class? Or was it a sentence you wrote yourself and then weren't sure about until/unless?
Amy
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Yankee
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| #11 (permalink) Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:56 am Without vs. unless |
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Hi, Amy
| Quote: |
| Where did your sentence come from? |
This was my own production… :)
To make something clearer (for me) I usually try to produce something doubtful (sometimes absurd, sometimes stupid :) ) and then thoughtfully look at it from different sides :)
It helps to understand better, really.
| Quote: |
| The meanings are fundmentally different, in my opinion: … |
Thanks, Amy. Now you’ve convinced me in full.
Tamara
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| #12 (permalink) Thu Jun 22, 2006 20:30 pm Without vs. unless |
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| Yankee wrote: |
unless:
I [will be doing / will do] that unless she asks me to stop.
This sentence gives me a headache :shock: and the reason is the word "stop". The word stop indicates that the activity will in fact begin i.e., you can't stop doing something without first beginning it.
Saying "I [will be doing / will do] that unless..." indicates that, under certain circumstances, the activity won't happen at all, i.e., will not even begin. So, using the word unless doesn't make much sense in the sentence. The word "stop" is not logical with the first half of the sentence when you connect the clauses with unless.
The only (unlikely) possibility where this "unless sentence" might work would be if "I will be doing" means "I've already begun and expect to continue in the future". The clause "unless she asks me to stop" would then mean "there will be no continuation of this activity into the future if she tells me to stop right now". |
I almost got a headache from this, too :) ! After reading your interesting explanation over and over again, I decided to exit the thread thinking I got it all clear in my mind. But I was only deluding myself and realised I hadn't got to the bottom of the problem (do you know the feeling?).
Trying to change the sentence a bit and using one of the tenses made all the difference (and sense) to me:
I'll eat the whole cake unless she asks me to stop. The sentence, though, doesn't seem to work with the future continuous.
PS: Incidentally, she did ask me to stop and the piece left can be found in another thread. |
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Conchita
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| #13 (permalink) Thu Jun 22, 2006 21:01 pm Without vs. unless |
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Hi Conchita
Yes, you're right. Your particular example works quite nicely.
Happy to hear that you seem to agree with regard to the future continuous.
Terribly sorry about your headache.
Amy
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