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 Thu May 25, 2006 21:51 pm Horizon broadening |
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| Conchita wrote: | Unfortunately, we don’t always have access to real people in flesh and blood who can introduce us to the new culture. However, using all the modern or traditional tools we have at our disposal, we can learn about their way of life, beliefs and traditions. And this will give us an insight into their language that grammar books alone cannot provide.
Many happy hours of mind broadening! |
Hi Conchita!
I think that is the reason for illustrations you found in school education books. I hope you don?t look at my reply as a sentimental journey only when I mention that the English education books I had been used to read, during my time at public schools, always had advice to the culture of the concerning country! As my time of pupil have gone by for a long time and unfortunately my wife and I don?t have children I wonder whether the nowadays school educations do always teach a little foreign culture yet?
Michael |
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Fan Of Arabian Horses
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| Thu May 25, 2006 22:28 pm Horizon broadening |
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There is a whole industry in the United States (and I suppose in other countries) that deals with teaching other cultures to people. The trouble is that this kind of information is not included in typical language books, which usually limit culture to food, arts and holidays. Occasionally school textbooks bring up proverbs, but they always seem to be equivalents to the same proverbs that exist in the learner's native language. However, it's the proverbs that DON'T exist in the learner's native language that are the most revealing.
For example, there is an Arab proverb that says, "Support your kinsman, whether he is the tyrant or the tyrannized." There is no similar proverb in English.
Central Europeans have a beautiful proverb that says, "Lies have short legs." I love that one, but we don't have exactly that saying in English.
If you want some good material on various national cultures, look at the books in the Culture Shock series, and at some of the books from Intercultural Press. They're fascinating. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4466
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Fri May 26, 2006 11:12 am ESL vs. EFL (second language vs. foreign language) |
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| Conchita wrote: | | The way a language is used can interestingly reflect the speaker’s mentality, character, outlook on life and other revealing factors. We all have our very particular, personal way of expressing ourselves. This is great and should be conveyed into the foreign language, too, in my opinion. |
Hi Conchita, I agree with everything you are saying here. Just one thing: Wouldn't it be better to refer to English as a second language rather than a foreign one? I mean, when you use English on a daily basis it more or less becomes a second language to you and it is no longer foreign, is it?
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Torsten
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| Fri May 26, 2006 11:19 am Teaching other cultures to people? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | There is a whole industry in the United States (and I suppose in other countries) that deals with teaching other cultures to people. |
Hi Jamie, you might call me a nitpicker but do you really think you can teach culture? Yes, I know that you are referring to the cross-cultural/intercultural/cultural diversity training industry and I totally agree with you that its market is constantly growing. The question is what exactly can such a training course achieve? I think what you can do is raise awareness of cultural issues and initiate an exchange of experiences, views and perceptions. But "teaching other cultures to people"? Is this really a sound concept?
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Torsten
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| Fri May 26, 2006 11:45 am ESL vs. EFL (second language vs. foreign language) |
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| Torsten wrote: | | Hi Conchita, I agree with everything you are saying here. Just one thing: Wouldn't it be better to refer to English as a second language rather than a foreign one? I mean, when you use English on a daily basis it more or less becomes a second language to you and it is no longer foreign, is it? |
The big question, Torsten, is: do I feel English is a second language to me  ? Anyway, I wasn’t referring exclusively to English, but to any language other than your native tongue/s, that is, other than the first you learn, if you want.
Your definition of the term is probably correct, although I feel it’s incomplete. You may be using a language everyday and still be learning it. Now, when does it become a second language to you? You may already have two native tongues. In this case, do we call the foreign one a third language? When I say ‘foreign language’, perhaps I mean ‘language of a foreign country’. Or maybe I’m just confusing ‘second language’ with ‘second nature’, hence all the doubts !! |
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Conchita
Language Coach
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2823
Location: Madrid, Spain
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| Fri May 26, 2006 12:31 pm Teaching other cultures to people? |
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| Torsten wrote: | | I think what you can do is raise awareness of cultural issues and initiate an exchange of experiences, views and perceptions. But "teaching other cultures to people"? Is this really a sound concept? |
You can teach a lot of a culture to someone. In fact, I have enough experience with people of certain cultures that I am asked to coach the cultural trainers.
For example, a Japanese man must be taught that he shouldn't continually fill an American guest's beer glass to the top the way he does in Japan. For him it's a sign of hospitality, and he expects the American to stop drinking and let the full glass sit there when he's had enough. To the American, leaving that beer in the glass will cause a guilty feeling, as if he were wasting food, and he's liable to drink it up every time the Japanese fills it.
You can teach an East European that plagiarism is considered a serious offense at American schools and universities, and that they can fail a course or be kicked out of the whole university based on just one incident. (I know of a Ukrainian who lost his student visa and was deported after he plagiarized once in an MBA program.)
You have to teach many Arabs that, regardless of what they've seen in movies, a normal American girl won't sleep with him a half hour after he meets her or just because he has asked. Not knowing this can get these men into a lot of trouble.
Once I had to teach a Czech lawyer that she needed to sound friendly in a job interview and not pompous.
There are also overarching cultural matters that have to be taught to people. Many foreigners in the US have to be taught new ways of handling time. They have to be taught that just because an American is friendly, it doesn't mean the thinks you're his friend. Some Germans need to understand that Americans are concerned about the same environmental issues that Germans are, but that Americans think of them as challenges and problems that can be solved, while many Germans act as if every problem will bring on the apocalypse. People have to learn a whole different style of writing (clearer and less pompous). One famous Russian ballet dancer said that when he defected to the US from the Soviet Union, he had to learn to stop lying all the time.
So you can teach pieces of a culture, and when it's all put together with experience, you have taught culture. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4466
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Fri May 26, 2006 12:34 pm Horizon broadening |
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| Fan of Arabian horses wrote: |
I think that is the reason for illustrations you found in school education books. I hope you don?t look at my reply as a sentimental journey only when I mention that the English education books I had been used to read, during my time at public schools, always had advice to the culture of the concerning country! As my time of pupil have gone by for a long time and unfortunately my wife and I don?t have children I wonder whether the nowadays school educations do always teach a little foreign culture yet? |
In Spain, children (or parents, rather), can choose between Religion (about the Catholic faith only) or Society, Culture and Religion (a broader, bigger area) as a compulsory subject – the Catholic Church strongly diisapproves of this law. My children now prefer the second option, which is fine by me (and which I would also choose for myself, I must say!). Another compulsory subject is Ethics. But, unfortunately, there is no subject that deals mainly with foreign cultures. Their English and French coursebooks may give them a vague insight into those cultures, but not necessarily, as Jamie explained. School exchanges are organised, but I’m still waiting for my children to feel some kind of enthusiasm about it!
| Jamie wrote: | | Central Europeans have a beautiful proverb that says, "Lies have short legs." I love that one, but we don't have exactly that saying in English. |
There is a similar Spanish saying:
"Liars get caught before cripples" (se coge antes a un mentiroso que a un cojo). |
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Conchita
Language Coach
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2823
Location: Madrid, Spain
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| Fri May 26, 2006 13:21 pm Teaching other cultures to people? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | You have to teach many Arabs that, regardless of what they've seen in movies, a normal American girl won't sleep with him a half hour after he meets her or just because he has asked. Not knowing this can get these men into a lot of trouble. |
Frankly Jamie, you would have to teach that to all men! But would they ever learn, I wonder!
When they meet an attractive girl, most men only think of one thing. We all know that – it’s a universal truth! When a girl says no, a few men may occasionally think she means it, but usually, they believe (or want to believe, rather) she means 'yes' or 'maybe' or 'try again' and can be awfully persistent or worse, unfortunately.
PS: Please, fellow women, don't leave me alone in this! |
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Conchita
Language Coach
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Posts: 2823
Location: Madrid, Spain
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| Fri May 26, 2006 13:32 pm Most men |
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Hi Conchita,
I'm surprised at you going into the generalisation game.
Alan
_________________
English as a Second Language
You can read my ESL story Are you a Persuader? |
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Alan
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| Fri May 26, 2006 13:33 pm Teaching other cultures to people? |
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| Conchita wrote: | | Jamie (K) wrote: | | You have to teach many Arabs that, regardless of what they've seen in movies, a normal American girl won't sleep with him a half hour after he meets her or just because he has asked. Not knowing this can get these men into a lot of trouble. |
Frankly Jamie, you would have to teach that to all men! But would they ever learn, I wonder! |
That may be true where you live, but it's not normal here. Sure, men may think about that when they meet an attractive girl, but in my experience here, it's peculiar to men from very restrictive Middle Eastern countries, especially Saudis, that a man will walk up to a girl, talk to her for a couple of minutes, bluntly ask her to sleep with him, and then get angry when she refuses. Nobody here has problems with Albanians doing this, with Bosnians doing this, or Indonesians or Filipinos. It's a specific problem with men from very restrictive Muslim countries. And of course they won't behave this way with Muslim women or women from their own countries. They do it to American or European women. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4466
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Fri May 26, 2006 13:39 pm Cultures |
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Hi,
Jamie wrote:
| Quote: | | That may be true where you live, but it's not normal here |
You're not going to take that, are you Conchita?
Alan
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You can read my EFL story A spring in your step |
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Alan
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| Fri May 26, 2006 13:49 pm Culture or genes? |
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I just knew it was dangerous!
This is not a matter of generalising, it's a matter of genes!! And no amount of denying, especially on men’s part, will make me change my mind -- even if (or particularly because) Jamie is starting to twist facts  !! |
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Conchita
Language Coach
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2823
Location: Madrid, Spain
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| Fri May 26, 2006 14:29 pm Culture or genes? |
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| Conchita wrote: | | This is not a matter of generalising, it's a matter of genes!! And no amount of denying, especially on men’s part, will make me change my mind -- even if (or particularly because) Jamie is starting to twist facts !! |
The situation is that you are starting to generalize more than I am. One of the ways some people deal with a generalization that is unpleasant to them is to generalize even more and claim that ALL people do whatever it is that's offending someone. However, it's never true that ALL people of a certain group or category do a certain thing, so the person is trying to combat what she thinks is a delusion with a still bigger delusion.
Once again, you and Alan can't tell the difference between a sweeping stereotype and a leaky generalization. You also can't tell this difference between making a stereotype or generalization and saying that "many people of a certain group do X". That is all I have said about any group. I don't say that MOST of them do something, or that ALL of them do something, but many. MOST Middle Eastern Muslims don't accost American women they way I described, but ENOUGH of them do to cause a problem and a lot of resentment, and it is so rare among other groups that Americans usually associate the behavior only with Arabs.
Sometimes only a minority of a certain group does something, but in a certain situation, if someone does that thing, the person is almost always from that group.
Example: Very few people of any group cheat on exams in my ESL classes. However, if someone does cheat on an exam, that person is almost always from Poland or the Balkans. No Arab, Chaldean, Chinese, Vietnamese, German, Japanese, Estonian, Lithuanian or South American has ever cheated in any of my classes. In fact, very very few people from Poland or the Balkans cheat in my classes. However, if someone does cheat, he is almost always from Poland or the Balkans.
Another one: Almost no Arab will present me with a phony doctor's note saying that he can be excused from class anytime he wants due to some vague, undefined malady. However, every time I have received such a note, the student and the doctor were always Arabic.
One about Americans: Most Americans never see the inside of a jail. And Americans aren't the only people who sometimes get arrested here. However, if a student wants to be excused for missing a test or assignment because he was in jail, that student is nearly always American.
If an American student around 22 or 23 years old stays after class a lot, talks to me in a certain way, and tries to make friends, there's an almost 100% chance that her father abandoned her family when she was small. I know this from many experiences. If I go into class and find half a loaf of banana bread waiting for me, I immediately know which student left it there, because there is a whole cluster of demographic traits that seem to result in banana bread being left on the table for the instructor. Even if I don't know exactly which student did it, I still know the approximate age, the marital status and the general family situation of the person. It sounds crazy, but these things have happened many times, and my assumption is almost always accurate. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4466
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Fri May 26, 2006 15:25 pm Culture or genes? |
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| Quote: | | In fact, very very few people from Poland or the Balkans cheat in my classes. However, if someone does cheat, he is almost always from Poland or the Balkans. |
Hi,
maybe they do cheat all and you just haven't caught them
old teacher , old eyes...?
just kidding
I am quite sure you are right about Poles ( at least about cheating in the schools).
The tradition , Polish tradition is not exactly about cheating
but much to long the education system was completely theoretic and was just promoting cheating ...!?
They were expecting from students in my school to study 47 hours a week( 47 lessons) and many of them not one by one but with a window/break (1or2 hours window/force pause)
What had caused that you were in the school many times from 07:30 to 21:30.
Plus travel time and the exams... well ,no fair teachers and schools - no fair rules or something like this.
I think, it is quite popular even nowadays in Poland , maybe except some schools? (I mean cheating in the school)
the education system had changed twenty times and I have no idea which direction good or bad ...
regards
Jan |
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Jan
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| Language students who fight | Enjoy english study |
