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 #17 (permalink) Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:00 am Get to know vs. recognize |
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Except that the original sentence is, in fact, valid English. Your only refutation has been that the 'corrected' sentence is also valid English, which I had never disputed. Congratulations on felling that strawman, but the original sentence remains untouched, and so far no native English speaker that I've shown this sentence to has been able to spot the 'error'. None of them notice anything wrong with the sentence, even after being told there was an 'error' they had to look for.
That, to me, is the real test, and information that people visiting here need to know.
Which sentence is 'better' is subjective and tangential. My original point was that the original sentence is valid English. |
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Angus77
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| #18 (permalink) Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:12 am Get to know vs. recognize |
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I disagree that it is but you are entitled to that opinion, which is why I indicated we will have to agree to differ.
In the interests of fairness, I'll show the test to native English speakers from a variety of backgrounds and with various degrees of proficiency in English (from degree level to no qualification) today and ask them which word they think is incorrect.
Incidentally, if you didn't think that 'recognize' was the wrong term, which of the other choices would you replace, and with what?
I'll let you know how I got on later... and I promise to be honest about it. (Otherwise there is no point in going through the motions.)
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Beeesneees
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| #19 (permalink) Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:59 am Get to know vs. recognize |
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| With nothing. That's the problem, and that's why I had to peek at the answer---it seemed (and seems) like a perfectly valid English sentence, and I wanted to know what the catch was. |
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Angus77
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| #20 (permalink) Fri Jul 16, 2010 18:59 pm Get to know vs. recognize |
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Well, as promised I conducted my own 'survey and I have to admit that although the results were inconclusive it looks as if I might have been wrong with regard to this one. I asked 18 people ranging from some who don't have a very good command of English to some who have degrees in it.
1 person got it almost immediately, the same way as I did.
5 more got the correct answer in under a minute.
3 more got the correct answer in under 3 minutes.
The other 9 were mystified.
So 50/50 results from this small sample (and it wasn't always the more academically minded that got the correct answer).
I apologise to you Angus. (I can't make a decision regarding whether to do anything about it, though. i don't have access to that database. I'm afraid you'll have t wait to find out whether anyone who does have access has been persuaded by this rather crude test.)
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Beeesneees
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| #21 (permalink) Fri Jul 16, 2010 19:55 pm Get to know vs. recognize |
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Hi,
As someone who does have access to the database I see no reason to change the wording in the test. I feel that this storm in a teacup about whether 'recognise' means something other than what can be found in several dictionaries really doesn't help any learner of English who may have followed this matter. It was originally created 6 years ago. Let's just move on, shall we?
Alan
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| #22 (permalink) Fri Jul 16, 2010 20:42 pm Get to know vs. recognize |
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| Beeesneees wrote: |
I asked 18 people ranging from some who don't have a very good command of English to some who have degrees in it.
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In passing, were they all native speakers of English?
I just find it hard to believe that native speakers can have a poor command of their language. I for one speak my native language without any handicap, and so do all the people whom I know.
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 Our Tort System
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| #23 (permalink) Fri Jul 16, 2010 23:06 pm Get to know vs. recognize |
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Some of them have Welsh as their first language.
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Beeesneees
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| #24 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:30 am Get to know vs. recognize |
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(I could have sworn I posted this reply already...)
| Alan wrote: |
| I feel that this storm in a teacup about whether 'recognise' means something other than what can be found in several dictionaries really doesn't help any learner of English who may have followed this matter. |
@Alan: Nobody has claimed 'recognize' means anything other than what the dictionary says*. My copy of the Concise Oxford gives no less than four definitions for 'recognize.' Check out #3.
* Although one could certainly make the argument, it's tangential---and more importantly, it's unnecessary here.
| Our Tort System wrote: |
| I just find it hard to believe that native speakers can have a poor command of their language. I for one speak my native language without any handicap, and so do all the people whom I know. |
@Our Tort System: A point that I've wanted to make myself, but I've been trying to keep away from further tangents.
The author of the original problem was trying to show the difference between 'recognize' and 'get to know', but happened to choose a poor example sentence to highlight it. |
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Angus77
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| #25 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 18:30 pm Get to know vs. recognize |
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Hi Angus,
I was able to easily understand the point you were making in your first post, and agree that the sentence could be read that way -- especially since there is no other context. I also see how 'get to know' fits very well in the sentence. Of course, using 'recognize' rather than 'get to know' would also change the meaning that the author apparently intended.
| Angus77 wrote: |
| The author of the original problem was trying to show the difference between 'recognize' and 'get to know', but happened to choose a poor example sentence to highlight it. |
The author is probably none other than Alan -- which would explain the resistance to suggestions for improvement. Unfortunately, you'll get nowhere with him.
For example, no one has been able to convince him to stop telling learners that it is wrong to think that 'dumb' is commonly used to mean the same thing as 'stupid':
Difference between stupid and dumb
http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic27713.html
Likewise, it has been impossible to convince him not to tell learners that saying "will have to" is incorrect in this test:
http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic789.html
| Angus77 wrote: |
| (I could have sworn I posted this reply already...) |
What a coincidence. I've noticed the very same thing with my posts on more than one occasion. Perhaps we could interest Scotland Yard in investigating the Case of the Mysteriously Vanishing Posts.
;-)
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| #26 (permalink) Sat Jul 17, 2010 23:17 pm Get to know vs. recognize |
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| Angus77 wrote: |
You think so? Who do colleagues recognize, if not each other? And you can give recognition much better in person than in the journals (for example).
As a native speaker, I actually read it that way (that's why I had to check the answer---I couldn't for the life of me figure out what was wrong with the sentence).
Maybe it's one of those UK English vs NA English things, but where I come from that would be a perfectly natural thing to say. |
Hi Angus,
Can you please describe an event the purpose of which is to give colleagues a chance to recognize each other better? How exactly does such an even work? Do you really say 'Frank, in order to recognize each other better I'd like us to organize special events'? Also, do you recognize people or people's achievements?
TOEIC listening, question-response: Do you live by yourself? |
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| #27 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:39 am Get to know vs. recognize |
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What is an awards ceremony? An event organized for peers to give each other recognition.
We recognize people for their achievements.
Definition #3 from the Concise Oxford:
'Recognizing an achievement' would be using one of the other three definitions for 'recognize,' specifically #2:
| Quote: |
| acknowledge the existence, validity, or legality of. |
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Angus77
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| #28 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:23 am Get to know vs. recognize |
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So, if Americans say 'we recognized each other at the event' they mean they give each other recognition for their achievements? Also, I didn't ask what an awards ceremony is because it is not mentioned in the sentence we have been discussing in this thread.
TOEIC listening, question-response: Can you call headquarters and confirm this information? |
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Torsten
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| #29 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 14:09 pm Get to know vs. recognize |
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I didn't say that you asked what an awards ceremony was. It was a rhetorical way of answering your question:
| Quote: |
| Can you please describe an event the purpose of which is to give colleagues a chance to recognize each other better? |
Also, it's not an American vs British thing. The Oxford Concise is not American.
One might say, 'The Association recognized Jim for his achievements', but likely not, 'I recognized Jim for his achievements.' The dictionary certainly wouldn't give you any clues why not. |
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Angus77
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| #30 (permalink) Sun Jul 18, 2010 14:25 pm Get to know vs. recognize |
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Hello Torsten,
This thread brings to mind a concept which is often referred to as 'peer recognition' or 'peer-to-peer recognition'. Basically, peer recognition involves peers/colleagues/coworkers recognizing each other for their achievements. This could take place very informally and spontaneously in an office setting. Or the recognition might take place on a larger scale, at a planned event/ceremony, for example.
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