|
|
#2 (permalink) Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:37 am Meaning of "is to pull" and "foray" |
|
|
'Japan is to pull its troops out of Iraq' means that it has to move its troops away from Iraq.
A foray is a sudden attack. |
|
Conchita Language Coach

Joined: 26 Dec 2005 Posts: 2826 Location: Madrid, Spain
|
|
#3 (permalink) Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:53 am Meaning of "is to pull" and "foray" |
|
|
Hi
The word foray has additional meanings. I wouldn't understand foray to mean sudden attack in the context of this particular sentence, but rather as "an attempt", "a venture" or "an endeavor". In other words, it was the first time Japan had had any kind of military activity (endeavors) in an active war zone since WWII. Military "endeavors" can also include "peace-keeping" activities, for example. And that would not be an attack.
For me foray does not mean "attack" in this sentence (even though that is a standard meaning for the word).
Amy _________________ "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
|
Yankee I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 8316 Location: USA
|
 |
#4 (permalink) Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:19 pm Meaning of "is to pull" and "foray" |
|
|
| Yankee wrote: |
Hi
The word foray has additional meanings. I wouldn't understand foray to mean sudden attack in the context of this particular sentence, but rather as "an attempt", "a venture" or "an endeavor". In other words, it was the first time Japan had had any kind of military activity (endeavors) in an active war zone since WWII. Military "endeavors" can also include "peace-keeping" activities, for example. And that would not be an attack.
For me foray does not mean "attack" in this sentence (even though that is a standard meaning for the word).
Amy |
Apparently, it has to do with personal points of view, Amy. In other words, with morals rather than grammar, I'm affraid. I guess I always consider an invasion/occupation as an attack. |
|
Conchita Language Coach

Joined: 26 Dec 2005 Posts: 2826 Location: Madrid, Spain
|
 |
#5 (permalink) Tue Jun 20, 2006 13:14 pm Meaning of "is to pull" and "foray" |
|
|
Hi Conchita
I don't think it has anything to do with morals at all. And to be honest, I also don't think my morals are bad, which seems to be what you're insinuating. I happen to have been adamantly against a war or military action in Iraq and actually wrote letters to Mr. Bush before the war ever started. Unfortunately, my attempts to prevent a war were unsuccessful. Sorry. :x
In my opinion, the interpretation of the word "foray" only has to do with the definition and contextual usage --- not with morals and not with grammar. I don't think Japan's activities in Iraq can be classified as a "sudden attack" (which was the definition you quoted), but rather only as activities carried out by its military. And that was my point. As I understand it, the Japanese are in Iraq to do things such as help rebuild infrastructure, provide clean drinking water, etc. Yes, there are Japanese troops in Iraq, but there again, I would be reluctant to say that Japan has "occupied" Iraq. For me, an occupation would be better defined as one single nation which occupies another. Depending on one's point of view, people might categorize the entire military presence in Iraq as "an international occupying force". But even then, such an "occupying force" does not consist only of Japan. However, it was only Japan that was mentioned in the sentence. I would be willing to call that a "military presence", but not an "occupation" by Japan.
If the sentence had been about the USA in Iraq - particularly back in 2003, then I'd have agreed with the use of "foray" to mean "sudden attack". But, no matter how I try, I can't see Japan in the same light. If my failure to see Japan's activities in Iraq as a "sudden attack" makes my morals questionable in your eyes, then so be it. :x
Amy _________________ "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
|
Yankee I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 8316 Location: USA
|
 |
#6 (permalink) Tue Jun 20, 2006 17:29 pm Foray |
|
|
Hi,
I'd like to add my thoughts on the meaning of foray. Admittedly it had its origins in the middle ages when groups of soldiers would launch sudden attacks with a view to pillaging or plundering the enemy camps but I think it has moved on considerably since then and that's the way as I see it, it's used in the quoted sentence:
| Quote: |
| Japan is to pull its troops out of Iraq, ending its first foray into an active war zone since World War II. |
with the idea of tentative venture. In other words Japan was testing the water by actually sending troops into an active war zone, which clearly had not happened since the end od WW2. The word foray to my mind is very much associated with trying a new undertaking/pursuit. This could be so in the case of a writer who decides to try the world of music, an actor who turns to singing or a politician who decides to take up writing. In all these examples people are making forays into activities unknown to them - they are putting their toe in the water to see how they get on.
Alan _________________ English as a Second Language You can read my ESL story Present Simple |
|
Alan Co-founder

Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Posts: 13887 Location: UK
|
 |
#7 (permalink) Tue Jun 20, 2006 22:34 pm Meaning of "is to pull" and "foray" |
|
|
| Yankee wrote: |
Hi Conchita
I don't think it has anything to do with morals at all. And to be honest, I also don't think my morals are bad, which seems to be what you're insinuating. I happen to have been adamantly against a war or military action in Iraq and actually wrote letters to Mr. Bush before the war ever started. Unfortunately, my attempts to prevent a war were unsuccessful. Sorry. :x
In my opinion, the interpretation of the word "foray" only has to do with the definition and contextual usage --- not with morals and not with grammar. I don't think Japan's activities in Iraq can be classified as a "sudden attack" (which was the definition you quoted), but rather only as activities carried out by its military. And that was my point. As I understand it, the Japanese are in Iraq to do things such as help rebuild infrastructure, provide clean drinking water, etc. Yes, there are Japanese troops in Iraq, but there again, I would be reluctant to say that Japan has "occupied" Iraq. For me, an occupation would be better defined as one single nation which occupies another. Depending on one's point of view, people might categorize the entire military presence in Iraq as "an international occupying force". But even then, such an "occupying force" does not consist only of Japan. However, it was only Japan that was mentioned in the sentence. I would be willing to call that a "military presence", but not an "occupation" by Japan.
If the sentence had been about the USA in Iraq - particularly back in 2003, then I'd have agreed with the use of "foray" to mean "sudden attack". But, no matter how I try, I can't see Japan in the same light. If my failure to see Japan's activities in Iraq as a "sudden attack" makes my morals questionable in your eyes, then so be it. :x
Amy |
I’m sorry you feel that I’ve insinuated something negative in my last post. It wasn’t my intention to do so. I feel that what someone has done is wrong. Your opinion is different, so be it. I only meant to give my personal point of view. |
|
Conchita Language Coach

Joined: 26 Dec 2005 Posts: 2826 Location: Madrid, Spain
|
 |
#8 (permalink) Wed Jun 21, 2006 0:44 am Meaning of "is to pull" and "foray" |
|
|
Hello Conchita
It sure would be nice to know who "someone" is and what exactly you think that certain someone has done wrong. That way I would know which "wrong" thing(s) you seem to think I see as right.
It seems to me that both of us feel the war in Iraq is wrong, so I can only assume that you think I see some other kind of "wrong" as right. How else am I supposed to understand what you wrote?
| Conchita wrote: |
| I feel that what someone has done is wrong. Your opinion is different, so be it. |
Which opinion is different?
I simply felt that to define "foray" as a "sudden attack" in connection with the sentence given would be tantamount to giving a brand new meaning to "sudden attack" and therefore the other definitions for foray were appropriate to look at and also seemed to fit reality better.
Amy _________________ "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
|
Yankee I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 8316 Location: USA
|
 |
#9 (permalink) Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:40 am Meaning of "is to pull" and "foray" |
|
|
| Yankee wrote: |
Hello Conchita
It sure would be nice to know who "someone" is and what exactly you think that certain someone has done wrong. That way I would know which "wrong" thing(s) you seem to think I see as right.
It seems to me that both of us feel the war in Iraq is wrong, so I can only assume that you think I see some other kind of "wrong" as right. How else am I supposed to understand what you wrote?
| Conchita wrote: |
| I feel that what someone has done is wrong. Your opinion is different, so be it. |
Which opinion is different?
I simply felt that to define "foray" as a "sudden attack" in connection with the sentence given would be tantamount to giving a brand new meaning to "sudden attack" and therefore the other definitions for foray were appropriate to look at and also seemed to fit reality better.
Amy |
I'm absolutely weary of this thread and wish I had not given my opinion in the first place. Aren't we making a mountain out of a molehill?
We are talking about Japan, aren't we? So, 'someone' is Japan. As far as I can see, our opinions differ as to the definiton of the word 'foray' in this particular war context. Far be it from me to 'question your morals'. Also, it's not a matter of who is right and who is wrong, but of thinking differently. That's all there is to it. |
|
Conchita Language Coach

Joined: 26 Dec 2005 Posts: 2826 Location: Madrid, Spain
|
 |
|
| Use of low, less, short, lower, lesser, shorter | Lite vs. light |